Private sales background checks

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This is a very bad idea; why would you want to impose that on private buyers and sellers.

I think the federal government is precluded from passing laws that impact sales of anything between buyers and sellers who reside in the same US state.

The gunshow loophole is not a loophole...... it is there for a reason....

.....the USA's founding fathers designed our government so that the federal government should have very few and limited powers.

Read your history books!
 
Now that I think about it, though, those violent types I mentioned earlier still would have easy access to bats, tire irons, knives, and bricks, so I can't really say that preventing them from having a gun will prevent violence. Sorry Justin, but I'm abandoning you on this issue.
 
A purely voluntary system would give rise to potential liability, and would create the groundwork for a mandatory system. Imagine sellers who could have called but didn't in a few highly publicized cases. It would be a huge step towards eliminating private sales. Not only that, but it would turn private sellers into something akin to an FFL holder, calling up the feds and leaving their own ID with the feds.

If the republic were functioning as it ought to, the feds would be helping people buy surplus M-16's, setting up ranges and assisting with training. In THAT world, your suggestion might have merit. But we are a long, long way from that and I simply do not trust them. They're not friends, they're not allies. They're not us.
 
There are law abiding people right now in New York State who had to wait six months , twelve months or more in order to get a permit just to buy a pistol. One person on the nyfirearms.com claimed he had to wait 17 months to get a permit to buy a pistol.

Lets hear how background checks prevent crime, what they do is prevent law abiding people from exercising their rights as an American put forth by our forefathers in order for us to be free.

Imagine the uproar if someone had to wait six months to a year to get approval to attend their preferred house of worship. Or having to wait 17 months and pay a $300 fee, 3 references, fingerprints, photograph and have to stand in front of a judge in order to vote?

I keep hearing 'reasonable restrictions' and 'why can't we concede' or 'lets give out an olive branch to the other side' . With all due respect if we had that mentality in 1776, we all would be subjects of the Queen by now.

The men and women through the years, decades and centuries who died fighting wars and battles so you and I can be free without compromises must be spinning in their graves.

The only thing in my opinion keeping us free is the right to keep and bear arms. That was the original intent of the second amendment. For us to offer up bits and pieces of our rights in order to be politically correct and 'get along' with those who seek to eliminate our rights is a slap in the face to those who fought to keep this country free.
 
I haven't privately sold a firearm to or bought a firearm from someone I didn't already know well enough to know they wouldn't have a problem passing yet another background check.

Thing is that most lawful gun owners are responsible, law-abiding people and they don't want the guns they own and decide to dispose of going into the hands of the criminal element when they sell them.


If I was going to sell something to someone I didn't know that well, I guess I'd ask to see their current License to Carry, if they have one. If not, we can meet at the local gun shop and ask them to do the transfer which will run it through the check, which in my state is the PICS system.


I'd be suspicious of someone I didn't know who wanted to sell me a firearm and stress that we had to transfer it outside the system. I'd suspect it was stolen. If it didn't matter to him one way or the other, or if he just couldn't make it to an FFL because of his schedule - and I believed him - I wouldn't be suspicious and probably go through with buying a long gun privately. Context, circumstances and gut feelings and all . . .


Handguns? We can't do private transfers of handguns in my state anyway, unless it's within my family.


This is a non-issue.
 
Midwest, there's a difference between a church, a vote, and a gun. I'd also like to mention that 17 months, $300 fee, and 3 references isn't common in many places. For me, in WA, my options were:
-Go to the gun store, buy a pistol, and wait X days for the cooling off period (something like 5-10, can't remember exactly) or...
-Get my CWP, pay ~$50-60, provide a form and my fingerprints, and wait 3 weeks. Then go to store and wait 15 minutes for NICS check.

This wasn't a huge hindrance. I agree that over a year and several hundred dollars would be, but this wasn't too big of a deal.
 
I would not be in favor of it being mandatory but as it is I have only ever sold a gun to someone I knew very well. If I were to sell a gun to someone I didn't know, I would definitely require an ID and permit to purchase (MN does not have waiting period) or carry permit. I guess, absent these things, selling a long gun, it would be kind of cool to be able to call in NICS just for my peace of mind.
 
Assuming that is true, it is still a worthy goal to reduce gun related crimes of all types. Just because they can't be 100% prevented does not mean attempts at reduction are a waste of time.

Keeping criminals in jail instead of constantly letting them out only to be rearrested, tried and sent back would do better to lower crime
Turning it back into PRISON and a CORRECTIONAL REHABILITATION FACILITY (anyone remember George Carlin on that?) and making the punishment so horrific might also help.

Punishing the 99.99% of any group because of the .01% extremist is wrong and counter productive
 
I cannot come up with a single solid reason that I should voluntarily subject myself, or any other person, to any more governmental scrutiny in the exercise of a constitutional right than necessary.

As far as voluntarily taking steps to prevent gun violence, I already do that:
  • I do not transfer firearms or ammunition to anyone that I know, or have reason to believe, is a prohibited person under the law.
  • I do not transfer firearms or ammunition to anyone when the circumstances of the sale or my contact with that person gives me reason to believe that "something just ain't right."
 
The Messiness of Life

Arfin, you make a very good point. However, there are some people that are not in jail any longer (or even yet) that would not be permitted to have a gun, and I agree with the assessment - persons with a restraining order, persons with mental illness, or persons who are out of prison but were convicted for some variation of domestic violence are all people I wouldn't want to put a gun into the hand of. These are all people that would be out on the street.

From my sig line:
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

There is much of life that simply isn't safe, and nerfing up everything, enacting a whole new layer of prior restraint laws, and performing pointless "background checks" on the citizenry isn't going to fix that.

It wasn't broken in 1967.

They "fixed" it in 1968.

And magically, "prohibited persons" continued to murder people with guns, because people willing to break the law, amazingly, also don't follow the rules.

So they added extra layers to the "fix" and nothing got better, but we wound up with more places where we couldn't carry, and more "special" configurations that we couldn't buy or own.

And "prohibited persons" continue to murder people with guns. Because, to them, all the new rules do not apply. These are criminals, remember? Why would another law matter?

And so, here we are today discussing whether we owe it to the people who want to shackle us to "prove" to them that we're well behaved.

That's sheer folly.

We've always been well behaved. And the bad guys have always misbehaved. And when you make a rule that disarms people who follow the rules, the bad guys are still armed.


There's a whole world of magical thinking out there which believes that rules are magic spells and that rules can prevent or compel things.

This same magical thinking community also believes that a group of people is somehow wiser than an individual person, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

You aren't ever going to be able to prevent crazy or evil people from killing other people. Ever. Understand? No amount of rule making or compliance enforcement or prior restraint or psychiatric pre-testing or anything else is ever going to accomplish that. Ever.

And it is madness to try.

Instead, make the default assumption that people are good -- you will be right more than 90% of the time -- and that people are smart enough to take care of themselves (and allow them to fail when they're not), and give people the means to defend their own lives, families, and property from predators, marauders, and pirates.

Have the police chase down the bandits who live through their attempts on the decent folk.

Life is messy. It can't really be any other way.


If you really want to enforce background checks and do profiling for insanity or latent evil intent, then that bracket of prior restraint should be applied first and foremost -- and only -- to anyone who covets public office.

And the penalties for lying to the electorate should be basically the same as those currently levied for "lying to congress."


The ownership and carry of firearms should be so commonplace as to be unremarkable, inspiring any criticism only as a function of bad fashion taste, like for wearing a brown holster with a black belt and shoes, or putting wood grips on a Glock.

Look, if everyone is armed, and it is known that everyone is armed, then it doesn't matter that the bad guys are armed.

And if you do have someone who is so evil that you dare not trust him even among an armed populace, then you won't be letting him out among them, now, would you?

 
Arfin, I would NEVER put wood grips on a Glock.

However, Chuck Norris has been known to wear his black belt with brown shoes. No one has ever called him on it. EVER.

(Sorry, tension break!)
 
I do not accept the foundation premise.


I'm not a criminal, and frankly I'm tired of having to continually prove it when I show up somewhere and want to buy something that's supposed to be constitutionally guaranteed.

I conjecture that it is for the express purpose of having a plausible excuse to "run a check" on anyone wishing to exercise their Second Amendment right, and thus provide a disincentive toward that exercise.

Let us instead quit perpetuating the lie that background checks do anything at all to retard crime.

All they do is convey suspicion that the honest man in front of you wishes to do something bad.

And quit making me prove I'm not him.


I took some editing freedom to your post Greebly but I agree with you 100% I'd also add that not only is what you state true, TICS in my case and NICS behind them no longer follow their own law. They don't even make the attempt to hold to the questionnaire (4473?), it's more of an "by innuendo and the activist on the other end thinks" no fly list for firearms. For all the ones that think every thing is merry so long as it doesn't interfere with you (right now) it likely will. Having someone, especially someone unaccountable, deciding whether or not you may exercise your 2nd amendment RIGHTS is just dead wrong. I never purchased a firearm for a little over 20yrs and I can tell ya, it's more than a shock to the system finding out what all is considered okay to ask of a purchaser now, vs. 20+ years ago. ANYONE thinks this is okay should heed the words of Benjamin Franklin. I don't think you understand or deserve the freedom of this country.
 
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Just another "feels good, does nothing" law that CRIMINALS will not follow.

The sooner people accept the FACT that laws do not prevent crime, but merely define them, the better off we all will be.
 
I tend to agree with the "If they are still a threat, don't let them back into society" group except for one small question.
Who gets to decide whether or not someone is no longer a threat??
 
I assume you are referring to the movie theater shooting? I never proposed it would have prevented that one specifically.



Unfortunately we do not yet have a machine that lets us know with any certainty if a person will commit another crime. The two extremes you are alluding to are indefinite incarcerations or letting felons have guns. Also, are you proposing that people with mental illness be allowed guns or locked up? Neither seems like a wise idea to me.

All the rhetoric and one liners are contributing nothing to this discussion. The fact is that the gun community has gained a reputation as being unreasonable and self centered amongst more than just those that lobby for gun control. That image is very damaging and if we don't take steps ourselves to try and reduce gun violence somebody else eventually will. We may not like it but the general public has a strong tendency to act out of emotion over reason and enough mass shootings and resistance to any compromise on our part will very likely only hurt us in the end. What i'm trying to do is find a way to actually find some sort of method that does not infringe on our rights to own firearms but still at least makes an effort to reduce gun related crime because pro gun one liners aren't helping. Remember, in a storm it is the trees that lack flexibility that eventually break.
I appreciate your opinion on what you think we should do to "regulate" ourselfs.......but one fact is more true than any others.

how many gun owners ?
How many gun related crimes ?
Whats the difference in numbers ?

wait for it.....

wait for it....

A whole hell of alot !



And why shouldnt the gun community be pissed and somewhat ogre like ? Weve watched double tounged lawyers and crying mommies play bleeding heart tunes to Americas firearm illiterate public (wich grows and grows as more laws are introduced) about how just a few bad apples should ban the apple trade.....horrible.

Also.... Im pretty sure about someone saying something about a mandatory "registry" being the first step to confiscation ? Anybody ? Anybody ? Buehler ? Buehler ? (Ferris Buehlers Day Off joke).

Gun laws always start with commerce.... why ? Because thats the only way the slugs have gotten in the back door.



Let us remind ourselfs what the true meaning of the 2nd amendment was.... perhaps all the bleeding hearts peer into the future (or past) and see what gun registry and confiscation from "the list" will do for them if the tryanny ramps up ? Probobly the same thoughts the Jewish people thought right after they had "amnesty registration" then came "confiscation" them came "irradication"..... History has repeated itself over and over and over again... sad thing is, most anti gun folks are too biased too see the truth for what it is.
 
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The progressives wants us to provider positive ID and pass a background check to purchase a gun. The same progressive govenment is forcing states to not ask for ID to vote. Does this make sense?
 
Just another "feels good, does nothing" law that CRIMINALS will not follow.

The sooner people accept the FACT that laws do not prevent crime, but merely define them, the better off we all will be.
+100 we have a large portion of this citizenry that rely too much on feelings for making decisions.

It's all about control and my guns are no different than my chainsaw if it's my property I should be able to sell it how and when I please. I also think adding another layer of rules could result in higher gun prices down the road.
 
As my post indicated my concerns are not for my own ends but in regards to gun rights on the whole. "Slippery slope" is not a real argument either. It can be used to argue against anything. It is possible to make compromises or take steps without going to the extreme.

Really?

Giving up my right of privacy for a government ran background check.

Are you really so naive to believe that the government is not keeping records of all background checks that are called in?

Compromise means both sides give something. You are willing to give up the right of privacy to all citzens. What are the anti-gunners giving up?

Why is my ability to buy and sale firearms privately a problem for you?
 
It's a mistake for pro-gun people to discuss anything "reasonable" since the anti-gunners are not "reasonable" -- their ultimate goal is the total elimination of guns. Whatever partial measures they propose are just smokescreens for us and waystations for them; it's a classic case of "salami tactics" -- they think they can get their way one slice at a time.

If this is a negotiation, you start with a maximalist position; you don't give up anything before even starting the negotiation. How about, for starters, we propose getting rid of the GCA '68 and the NFA '34?
 
If you want to sell, and I want to buy - it is not your business who I am and what I intend to do with the weapon once I have it. I almost never buy from FFL's for this reason. I have a CCW permit, I'm a good guy; but I shouldn't have to prove that to purchase. OK if you check my ID to see if I am over 21 (as if it wasn't obvious, dear Lord) but that is all. I have refused to buy from privates before who have a little book of records with DL #s and such in it. Why am I buying private if I have to document.

Your idea in my opinion is about the worst idea I have ever heard. Nothing personal; but it is ideas like that that end up costing people their freedom.
 
Appeasement never works. The antis are interested only in a total gun ban. Being patient, they are willing to chip away little by little.

What the OP suggests in the name of compromise will result in losing more liberty inch by inch.
 
How about this, the government passes a law imposing a travel restrictions on all people from leaving their neighborhoods until after you pass a background check and prove to the authorities stationed at the end of the neighborhood checkpoint you are not going out to commit a crime.

You would need to tell them where you are going, that you're are legally allowed to go there, what your intentions are when going there, and submit to a full search of your vehicle and person before you are allowed to continue on your travels.


They would issue you a special permit allowing you to travel to and from your place of work, and perhaps the grocery store. If you are caught outside your "permit zone" you are obviously going to commit a crime and are therefore arrested.

Sounds like a wonderful place to live doesn't it!
 
"The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world"...............we have let the left rule the education system since LBJ - as a result, anything and everything antigun has now been made into "mainstream" education
Used to be a kid could bring a gun to school because he was going hunting afterwards, now if he draws a picture or make a finger gun, he is suspended and recommended for counseling and the parents have the DFC coming to look into their lives.........

We have met the enemy and he is us - we have let our rights be taken away slowly through "education" - it is time to correct that education and make folks realize that a gun can cause a crime about as much as a pencil can cause spelling errors
 
I support the premise of the original poster. If I wanted to sell a gun, I would prefer a system where the sale would have to go through an FFL for a nominal charge so I could be absolutely sure the buyer has no history of mental illness or violent crime. It's no more than due diligence as a responsible gun owner.

So many times I hear private sellers say things like, "Well I'll just trust my judgement because I'm a good judge of character". Actually, chances are, you're not. Everyone likes to think they are a good judge of character but it's obvious just from looking around that most people aren't. I'll take the objective background check, thanks.

+100 we have a large portion of this citizenry that rely too much on feelings for making decisions.

I agree. Decisions like whether or not to make a private sale are 100% based on the seller's subjective feelings. Let's change this.
 
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