Private sales from individuals to individuals prohibited in Austin, TX (merged)

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And while you're at it, please join TSRA.
And watch the debate on 29 January--see if Debra Medina has something to say on 2A rights. :)
 
There was an idea on the infowars website that a guy had in essence he recommended that we all stand around passing a dollar and a gun in a circle while video taping the thing. Then we let them do as they wish. They'll either let it go, and go away or arrest us all, and we'll have a potential law suit.

I think it's a great idea, have a cheapy gun I'll donate to the cause, and even start the thing off. I just wonder if we have any attorneys on here who are willing to step in and take it on. I mean we'd be doing something perfectly legal so why not?

Why not even take it a step further, and do the passive resistance thing? Don't resist, but make them haul you off while it's all being taped?
 
I hadn't been going myself since the switch from Saxet, the number of tables selling guns was pretty low. I'm going to do a little research; see how the posted request for the facilities apply to the parking lot. I'll be going to the next one with a gun in hand to sell. I double dare them.
 
The Austin Gun Show has now been PERMANENTLY canceled by HEB, the lease holder at the Crockett Center. They told Darwin Boedekker today that he may no longer hold the Texas Gun Show at the facility.

The HEB Phone number where you can call and give them a piece of your mind is 800-432-3113.
The KVUE Channel 24 phone number where you can tell them about their "news" story (below) is 512-459-6521.
Austin Mayor Leffingwell's phone number: 512-974-2250
Austin Police Department: 512-974-5000


KVUE (ABC) News ran this story as their opening shot tonight. It's excretory.

http://www.kvue.com/news/local/Gun-show-owner-alleges-rights-violation-82115242.html

A gun show owner says the Austin Police Department violated his constitutional rights. Police are now setting the record straight.

The controversy centers around a yellow flyer passed out at the Texas Gun Show in North Austin last weekend. It reads:

"Selling of Firearms"

At the direction of the Austin Police Department and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, anyone selling a firearm at this show location will be asked to comply with the following:

1. Any person selling a personal firearm must go through a licensed FFL dealer in the show to transfer the firearm to the new owner.

2. Selling of firearms in the parking lot will not be permitted.

Thank you for your cooperation!

APD Detective T.J. Vineyard told reporters in a news conference Tuesday, the recommendations were the result of a year long police investigation of the gun shows.

"Every time we were there we observed transactions that were either questionable or illegal so our effort was to find ways to address that,” he said.

Vineyard said the goal of the operation was to stop illegal gun trafficking to Mexico.

"Some people would go to vendors to purchase a firearm, and when they were asked to fill out paperwork to do a background check they would bypass that vendor and go to another vendor that wouldn't require a background check,” Vineyard said.

HEB rents out the building where the gun shows are held. Company representatives asked for help to stop the problem. APD and members of the ATF recommended show owner Darwin Boedeker stop allowing private citizens to sell guns without the assistance of a licensed dealer. Thus, forcing every buyer to have a background check.

"Most of the people who are trying to achieve legitimate sales of firearms want that protection, They want to know the gun their buying isn't stolen or the person they sold a gun to isn't a felon or on parole for murder,” Vineyard said.

Boedeker says the request is a violation of our constitutional right to freely sell guns.

"What they want to do is shut the gun shows down. This just doesn't affect me. This affects you, this affects the person down the road, every law abiding citizen,” he said.

Boedeker went along with the recommendations for last weekend's show, but still APD made an arrest. He says HEB has since told him he can no longer hold shows here. Boedeker is convinced police wanted to HEB to make that call.

"At least they knew where to go to arrest them. If there wasn't a gun show, they'd be down in a back alley. Felons are always going to be able to get a gun. That's why they're felons. They don't follow the law,” Boedeker said.

"We didn't mandate anything, we didn't direct anyone to do anything. We made suggestions to them and how to handle that with their tenants or sub-leasers is a civil matter among them," Vineyard said.

Police say during the past year they have arrested eight people on illegal weapons charges. Texas Gun Shows has been using the North Austin Event Center since November. Before that the Saxet Gun Show was there. Boedeker says he knows of only one arrest since he's used the property. He says he's trying to find a new location for his show.

There were NO arrests at the Texas Gun Shows operated by Boedicker. The police last weekend handcuffed a vendor, paraded him through the crowd, but released him after holding him outside for 45 minutes. The statement made by the police that they observed illegal activity is FALSE as no arrests have been made at Texas Gun Shows while they have operated in Austin! They lied to the media and KVUE ate it up. The police coerced HEB to shut down a business owner, who has not broken any laws, based on SUSPICION!
 
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I find it interesting that HEB is folding to this pressure. Not that the company has a strong stance on firearms, but the Butt family (owners of HEB) are conservative, and I would expect them to support the 2nd amendment. In a way I hate to involve them, but they do seem to share some responsibility, I'm going to have to think about where I get my groceries.
 
The Austin American Statesman just printed what looks like an APD press release. The unconstitutional strong-arming in this release really gets my hackles up. They admit in this press release that they were requiring Boedeker to follow their "suggestion" that only FFLs be allowed to sell any firearms, while personal firearms sales ARE NOT AGAINST THE LAW! Disobey their suggestions and you get shut down.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/cont..._role_in_targe.html?cxntfid=blogs_the_blotter

APD outlines its role in targeting illegal activity at gun shows

Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 04:26 PM

FROM THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENT:

Federal Immigration, Customs, and Enforcement (ICE) agents worked cooperatively with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) agents last year in a long-term operation targeting illegal gun trafficking that was stemming from local gun shows. Austin Police Department Firearm Review Unit detectives assisted in the Austin portion of the operation. They observed and participated in multiple arrests of prohibited persons (primarily convicted felons and illegal immigrants) that obtained firearms illegally at a local gun show.
Federal convictions were obtained in a majority of the cases.

Virtually all of these sales to prohibited persons were made by unlicensed dealers or private citizens, both inside the gun show and in the parking lot of the gun show. While the sale of firearms between private citizens is not illegal, the anonymity of these sales in or around the event created an easy avenue for illegal immigrants or convicted felons to acquire firearms. Because of this recurring activity at a single location, the Firearm Review Unit referred the case over to the APD Nuisance Abatement Unit.

Due to the history of criminal activity at the gun show, the Nuisance Abatement Unit scheduled a meeting between the property lessee (HEB Grocery), the building sub-lessee (Andrew Perkel a.k.a Austin Market Place), the event promoter (Darwin Boedecker-Texas Gun Shows) and ATF. During this meeting, APD along with ATF offered to all parties, recommendations to curb the illegal activity that had been documented in the past. At the conclusion of the meeting the lessee agreed that the recommendations should be followed and instructed their sub-lessee to follow the recommendations. The sub-lessee then informed the event promoter to implement the recommendations at the next show. The recommendations that the lessee directed the sub-lessee and the event promoter to follow were:

1. Only licensed gun dealers are allowed to sell firearms at the gun shows
2. The promoter will provide on-site security to prevent parking lot gun sales
3. The promoter will define a process for people other than licensed dealers that show up with a gun that they want to sell
 
"Every time we were there we observed transactions that were either questionable or illegal so our effort was to find ways to address that,” he said.

Is Detective Vineyard saying that while attending previous shows he observed transactions that were illegal, and yet did nothing? "Questionable" is one thing, but "Illegal" doesn't leave any wiggle room. If it was illegal an arrest should have been made.

But then they would have to prove it in a court of law.
 
But then they would have to prove it in a court of law.

Well now we can't be having that now can we? I mean due process for all those conservative, terrorist, gunnuts just can't be allowed now can it?
 
Is Detective Vineyard saying that while attending previous shows he observed transactions that were illegal, and yet did nothing? "Questionable" is one thing, but "Illegal" doesn't leave any wiggle room. If it was illegal an arrest should have been made.

But then they would have to prove it in a court of law.

+1

I was thinking the same thing. If there are illegal activities going on, why not arrest the bad guys and leave us law abiding folks alone?

As for proving it, I'm not against the police going undercover to ferret out the BGs. They could just go up to some people and say things like, "I'm in the country illegally," or "Yeah, I just got out of prison and need a gun."

If there are people at the shows selling to those types, then they should be arrested. But most of us wont even sell to someone if we get a bad vibe from them let alone to someone we know is actually trying to break the law.


I kind of feel sorry for HEB. They're in a bad spot: being coerced by the APD, having to worry about getting caught up in legal issues and publicity issues...from a strictly business perspective, I can see why they would decide it is better to just not host such events and avoid the whole potential mess.

I certainly hope that is their reasoning and that they would remain neutral in the political arena just as we ask many other companies to do so.
 
Not sure that'll do any good. I'm sure they're looking at it from a we-don't-want-the-hassle-for-the-money-we-make point of view.

And, as a business man I can understand it. HEB isn't in the gun rights business they're in the landlord business. I think a rally of some sort, and fund raiser for the guy's legal fund.
 
We have gotten several places to take down their 30.06 signs or be more friendly to gun owners in the past here in Texas. Polite pressure and honest information works. Just look up the thread in here about two years back where we were able to get Alamo Drafthouse - Lake Creek to take down their 30.06 sign.

CALL THEM.

They just let Debra Medina into the next gubernatorial debate because WE all called and emailed Dallas Morning News until they relented. It does work!
 
I sent a short RESPECTFUL note to them last night via email through their corporate site. It was late enough of course that the offices were closed, but now I wonder if they'll answer and how long it will take. If there is any answer at all I'm sure it'll be a short form letter saying absolutely nothing, but hopefully choking their email server with such emails will get some attention.
 
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There were more illegal gun sales just down the street at the corner of Lamar and Rundberg last weekend than during the history of the Austin gun show yet APD states this was "due to the history of criminal activity"! Sounds like he may have a law suit if APD admitted to ordering him to comply without a law to enforce it.
 
It's sort of interesting that during this "long term"? investigation they apparently did or didn't make arrests (depending on which statement you read) but apparently didn't take the matter up with the show producers (there may have been two at different times). Could it be that they were running a sting operation and using the show as bait? Anyway, I would think if they were making high-profile arrests at the show and in the parking lot the word would have gotten around in both the gun show and criminal communities.

Somewhere in all of this, something smells like rotten meat... :uhoh:
 
I wonder if we should have a "Barbeque" - on private land - outside of Austin, in a couple of months. I'd expect that a lot of firearm enthusiasts would attend; and many of them would participate in the "cookoff" and incidentally have a few firearms with them.:evil:
 
Hmmmm... Howard Nemerov of the Examiner says that there is more to this story than Texas Gun Shows is sharing with us - considering his longstanding role as a supporter of thr RKBA, I am guessing he isn't taking sides without a good reason.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Aust...-show-update-Interviews-reveal-bigger-picture

Among one of the details not revealed by TGS is that apparently, TGS's contract with HEB included a provision that only FFLs would be allowed to sell firearms. According to HEB, they planned to cancel the show at the meeting mentioned above; but agreed to a compromise as long as TGS would limit sales to FFLs.
 
Well, having spent 2 hours last night listening to the interviews etc with Mr. Boedecker, and now reading this Examiner article I can say with absolute clarity that we have a he said she said situation here. And, no way for us to know what went on inside that meeting without access to any taping that happened. And, no way to know what the original lease said unless it comes out from one side or the other. Nothing in the Examiner article is new except the assertion that the show's original lease specified only FFL transfers. I guess the only real facts we have are:

  • There was a meeting
  • ATF, HEB, APD, and Boedecker attended this meeting
  • The flier was passed out
  • The show is closed.

However, I do know that the Austin City Council voted a resolution to oppose concealed carry when the legislature was considering our CHL some years ago. The city has not changed it's liberal stance that I can see. I can certainly see both the ATF and the City putting some strong arms on both parties to get what they want. I also can believe that both parties want to end gunshows. The city already demonstrated this years ago by kicking them out of their facility.

I do find it disturbing that the original contract was supposedly not followed by the promoter. If that turns out to be it true it will be much harder for me to defend him, or sympathize.

I guess it is to each of us to judge. I for one will side with Boedecker until he is proven guilty, and fight for him until that time. If he is proven guilty of some wrong doing (even violating a civil contract) I will fight as hard as against him. However, innocent until proven guilty.

THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO EXCUSE NOT MEETING CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS!

But, does anyone else think that private sales restrictions would be a bit unenforceable? If I and another consenting adult meet in the show and agree to a business deal then I don't see how it could be stopped. I'm not even sure it could be known to be honest, but that's a whole different issue.
 
Hmmmm... Howard Nemerov of the Examiner says that there is more to this story than Texas Gun Shows is sharing with us - considering his longstanding role as a supporter of thr RKBA, I am guessing he isn't taking sides without a good reason.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austi...bigger-picture

Among one of the details not revealed by TGS is that apparently, TGS's contract with HEB included a provision that only FFLs would be allowed to sell firearms. According to HEB, they planned to cancel the show at the meeting mentioned above; but agreed to a compromise as long as TGS would limit sales to FFLs.

I think you need to read all the news stories, press releases and APD statements to see what APD and the ATF did. This person in the examiner is spinning things a bit.

I find it very hard to believe that the gun show would submit to a lease stipulation where FFL-only sales were allowed. Especially when they had been operating this way for two months already. This is very much a he-said she said situation. However, in Texas rental law, it normally takes 30 days to evict a tenant for breach of a lease which I assume was already signed. The HEB, APD and ATF again have NO AUTHORITY to shut down this man's gun show in this manner since he already signed a lease unless there were very exotic stipulations written into the lease.

APD claimed that they did not directly shut down the show. This is incorrect as they were implicitly involved. If you look in this press release by the APD, which the Examiner article conveniently does not fully quote, it says that APD requires that their suggestion of "Only licensed gun dealers are allowed to sell firearms at the gun shows" will be followed, or the APD, ATF and HEB will unlawfully shut down his show as he was told in the Thursday, 1/14/2010 meeting. They have no statutory authority in criminal law or Texas property law to lock him out of that building for which he already had a lease.
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/cont..._role_in_targe.html?cxntfid=blogs_the_blotter

Also, if the APD observed illegal transactions, why didn't they make arrests? That is their job, not to use completely undocumented suspicion and conjecture to shut down the legitimate businessman completely outside a court of law.

The APD and ATF were not enforcing existing laws here. They were behaving like mafia.
 
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