Problem w/ 35 Whelen loads

[JSimpson65]

Hello All,

I recently purchased a Ruger M77, new, in 35 whelen and took it to the range today for the first time. I loaded about 40 rounds, and out of 30 I tried, had 5 that did not fire. There is a definate primer strike on the 5 rounds, but not as deep as on the rounds that went boom. I've mostly loaded pistol ammo until now, other than 100 or so 45-70 rounds which is basically like a big revolver round. Until today, I've never had a round not go off when the trigger was pulled, but I'm pretty new to bottleneck cartridge reloading so maybe there is something I'm missing.

Info: Brass was new, Remington 35 Whelen. Powder was H-335. 20 rounds loaded w/ 50gr., other 20 loaded w/ 53 gr. Primers were CCI-200's. Dies were RCBS. I primed by hand with the RCBS priming tool, and believe I seated all primers fully.

I'm hoping someone here with more experience that I can point me in the right direction. I didn't try firing the rounds again after the initial misfire and now I'm thinking I should have done that to see if the problems was primers not seated deep enough. I also noticed that the first round was a misfire, as was maybe #3, and that the last 15 or 20 there were no misfires at all. Maybe that was just coincidental, not sure.

Any info or suggestions would be appreciated.

Joe

 

[NCsmitty]

I'm guessing you may have pushed your case shoulder back when you resized. You need to back off the die a bit and try a few cases so that the bolt just closes on the case. The Whelen doesn't have a very big shoulder.
I also recommend using magnum primers with that ball powder.


NCsmitty

 

[JSimpson65]

NCSmitty,

Thanks for the info. That gives me enough direction that I can start working on the problem. Would something like a Wilson Headspace gauge help as well, or is it simpler to just adjust the sizing die to the point where the bolt closes with slight resistance?

Thanks again,

Joe

 

[loadedround]

Is it possible that some of your primers were not completely seated? Did they fire the on the second try? That would be my first guess.

 

[JSimpson65]

Is it possible that some of your primers were not completely seated? Did they fire the on the second try? That would be my first guess.

It is possible, but I doubt it. I've never seated a primer that didn't fire in probably 1000 to 2000 rounds of pistol ammo, and seating by hand I think I have a pretty good feel. Unfortunately, I didn't try a second time on the ones that didn't fire, but I will try them again next time at the range to see if that could be the problem.

 

[Slamfire]

I recently purchased a Ruger M77, new, in 35 whelen and took it to the range today for the first time. I loaded about 40 rounds, and out of 30 I tried, had 5 that did not fire. There is a definate primer strike on the 5 rounds, but not as deep as on the rounds that went boom.

I purchased a 35 Whelen built around a double heat treat 03 receiver. This rifle has a Douglas barrel with an unusually tight twist of 1:10.

The previous owner claimed he experienced a lot of case head separations in this rifle. I asked him if he set up his sizing dies with a cartridge headspace gage, and no he did not. Anyway being new to the 35 Whelen I decided to be cautious. I fireformed around 100 30-06 cases with pistol bullets and lubricated cases. I used 158 LRN pistol bullets and 16 grains of AA5744. Accuracy was awful, about two foot groups at 100 yards. But the cases were fireformed. By firing with light loads and leaving case lube on the cases I reduced the probability of case head stretching. Now that I had cases that were perfectly formed to the chamber, I sized them. I don’t remember how much I pushed the shoulder back, but it was not much.

My records indicate that my load development was in 40 F weather. I had horrible hangfires with AA2520 and CCI 200 primers. AA2520 is a ball powder. I had a slight hangfire with Varget, no issues what so ever with IMR 3031.

The next bunch of tests I decided to use cases had had zero headspace in the chamber. It is easy to remove the firing pin mechanism in these older military rifles, so I made sure that with a sized case in the chamber that the bolt dropped without resistance but that there was no forward or back movement once the bolt closed. I don’t like doing this, normally I want a .002” to .003” shoulder push back, but I was experimenting in this rifle.

I also changed the old mainspring to a new Wolff mainspring. I forget if I used a 20, 24, or heavier spring.

I still had hangfires with AA2520 in 42 F weather. No issues with Varget or IMR 3031.

In 65F weather I had perfect ignition with IMR 4064 and decent accuracy. Still using CCI 200's.

I believe that the slight shoulder of the 35 Whelen cushions the firing pin blow. My rifle also has a built in problem : the firing pin hit is slightly off center. Off center firing pin hits increase the chances of misfires and hangfires. Based on my testing I think stick powders are the best in the 35 Whelen, with the faster stick powders being the better choice. IMR 3031 maybe the best overall powder in the 35 Whelen, it is on the fast side and it functioned well in 40 F weather. In my rifle I am going to have to use cases that have zero slack, to a slight crush fit for reliable ignition.

I would recommend that you buy a cartridge headspace gage and size your cartridges to gage maximum. I would also recommend that you discontinue the use of ball powders. I have not tried magnum primers, but that is probably a good idea in this cartridge.

 

[JSimpson65]

Thanks to all for pointing out that it was likely a headspace issue. My wilson headspace guage arrived today, so I first checked the rounds that did not fire. They were definately below the minimum. The difference wasn't much and I was having trouble measuring it with my not-so-great-quality calipers, but visually i can tell they set below the minimum point and you can easily feel it with a fingernail. Next, I tried the fired brass from the rounds that fired OK, and found that they are right at the minimum step on the headspace gauge. Fingernail test tells me they aren't above or below the minimum. I had also loaded 6 rounds that were formed from .270 brass previously, but didn't try shooting them the first day as I was not happy with the misfires and didn't want to complicate my problems. I chambered the .270 rounds in the rifle, and the bolt has some resistance on closing. These rounds measure out very near the max on the headspace gauge. So, I guess that tells me the headspace gauge matches my chamber pretty closely, I think?

Using the once fired R-P 35 Whelen brass, I found that if I size them to the minimum, I can see that about 80% of the neck has been sized down, but the shoulder is untouched, I believe. Should I leave it at that? Even without (I think) touching the shoulder, I am still right at the minimum as is the once-fired brass. Is there any advantage to buying a neck size die, or am I basically accomplishing the same thing by sizing only the neck with the full-length size die?

Thanks again for the help. I'm slowly starting to get a better understanding of the difference between loading rimmed cartridges and bottleneck cartridges.

 

[Innovative]

Digital Headspace Gauge

There's no need to guess how close your handloads come to a case gauge. (They represent an "acceptable range" of dimensions).

You can use our Digital Headspace Gauge and easily set die height accurately to get the perfect chamber clearance for YOUR handloads in YOUR particular chamber. Read about it on the homepage of my website, and you'll see how it works.

- Innovative

 

[243winxb]

Clean the bolt. What bullet are you loading?

 

[243winxb]

Should I leave it at that? Even without (I think) touching the shoulder, I am still right at the minimum as is the once-fired brass.

Cut a shim from a soda can, they are about .004" thick. Put a hole in the shim for the decapping pin. Place between your shell holder and FLRS die when adjusting/setting it. Try that for a while, look for hard closing of the bolt on sized brass. This link might help. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11470/guntechdetail/Gauging_Success___Minimum_Headspace_and_Maximum_COL

 

[fguffey]

Not the first Ruger 77 that has failed to fire out of the box with NEW ammo. A friend called from the range and ask me if Remington was having problem with their ammo, for me the that is an irritating way to ask a question, I had rather know why he ask the question, so I had to ask "Why do you ask"? then I find another shooter had purchased a new Ruger with a box of new Remington 30/06 ammo, 5 of the 20 did not fire, the shooter made two attempts to fire the cases and two additional attempts were made in another rifle, the 5 would not go, I suggested they call Remington, seems it was more fun to blame Remington so that was not going to happen, latter that day he brought the 'duds?' over, I measured the cases for case length with my home made system, I measured the cases in a Wilson case gage and then in chamber gages I hake out of old barrels with chamber reamers, then I went back with the 15 fired cases and checked them against the new unfired cases with the dented primers, the 15 cases would seat in the chamber gage with thumb pressure, no problem with the fired cases.

Then we pulled the ammo down by pulling the bullets, we weighed the bullets, powder and cases with primers, not one grain difference, we then punched the primers then reseated them back in the same cases, chambered them one by one in a M1917 and fired all five. No conclusion just an opinion but I believe all 5 would have fired in the M1917 out of the box, after the first 5 attempt had I been at the range.

Side note, my friend called two days later and said he could not find gages we were using on the Internet, again I explain we were using three different ones, then I spelled W-I-LS-O-N and do not forget to add the 'Le' in front of the search, leaving the Le off could allow you to get hi-jacked by someone trying to sell a case comparator, then he said he is very familiar with Le Wilson the case gage company, he explained to me he wanted the other gage, the one that fit, the one that allowed us to measure case protrusion in thousands, then I explained to him that was not for sell on the Internet, I told him I made that one.

It is alleged the bullet, case, powder and primer can accelerate to a speed that would allow the total weight of the ammo to out run the firing pin and in doing so avoid the primer strike, I had no problem firing the primer in the case without the powder and bullet, without sneaking up on any of the five.

Then there is the excessive head space thing, 8mm57 ammo has been fired in an 8mm06 chamber, that is .125 thousands head space, Hatcher thinking head space was part of the problem with the 03 Springfield, he moved the shoulder forward .125 and fire formed 30/06 cases to fit his 30/06 Hatcher +.125 Wildcat.

 

[fguffey]

Pushing the shoulder back on new cases for a new rifle with a new chamber? I have no clue what that is about, sizing the new cases should not have been necessary and there is no way a shoulder can be set back beyond minimum length, minimum length is equal to new in the box ammo, both are minimum length or full length size with an exception, I set the shoulder back by as much as .012 below minimum length, that is .017 below the length of the perfect (go-gage) length chamber, but I find it necessary because I ream the chambers short for test firing before finish reaming, then I make a chamber gage to match case protrusion.

Back to my M1917 Eddystone with .016 head space, any good/new ammo can be fired in the chamber with that is field reject gage size ONCE and again after full length sizing. After that it is strongly recommended to become very familiar with the very versatile die, the full length sizer die and the companion to the press tool, the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

Minimum length =full length sizing: When the ram is up and the die is adjusted down to the shell holder with an additional fractional of a turn is full length sizing, with one exception the case can not be shortened with out grinding the bottom of the die or top of the shell holder. The perfect new chamber in a new Ruger rifle is .005 thousands longer from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber than the perfectly full length sized case when the case is measured from the head of the case to it's shoulder.

 

[fguffey]

and when I check head space on one of my Springfield's I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, I do not remove anything, I apply the leaver policy, I leaver along, things like the firing pin and extractor.
Instead of head space gage I use the ammo that is going to be fired in the chamber, a new box of Remington 30/06 has .0015 difference between the long case and short case, when measured from the head of the case to the shoulder, or when checking head space in the 03 with a feeler gage.

F. Guffey

 

[Boxhead]

If this is one of the stainless guns that Ruger put out a bit ago I would call them and advise them of the issue. There was a problem with those guns that I believe was related to the firing pin/pin spring but I cannot recall for sure. If you go over the the AR site and search on it you might find the story I am trying to recall. Again, I'd give Ruger a call.

 

[fguffey]

Boxhead, Ruger needs to know, I agree, if given all the information they could get a little confused.

The length of the 35 Whelen case from the head of the case to to it's shoulder is the same as the length of the 30/06 and there is only 0 minutes 02 seconds difference in shoulder angle.

When forming cases the parent case, in my opinion, is not a consideration if the parent case shoulder is the same and or shorter than the case to be formed, bad choices would be the 30/06 and 270 when forming 35 Whelen or 338/06, a better choice would be the 280 Remington because the 280 Remington shoulder is .051 thousands ahead of the 270, 30/06 8mm06, 35 Whelem and 338/06 and the 280 is longer by .041 thousands,

A better choice, with a case length of 2.650 there is no way a wildcatter that knows his way around the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, to have a case that does not fit with perfect head space.

http://www.z-hat.com/Cylinder.htm

F. Guffey