Problem with Win 231 in .357 magnum

[Smokey Joe]

Have used 3.4 grains of Win 231 with 148 grain lead wadcutters for years with excellent success. Mild recoil, mild report, better accuracy than I can shoot.

Happened to get hold of a box of 158 grain semi-wadcutter cast lead bullets; thought I'd try them. So began researching loads to use.

Winchester reccommendation is for a max of 6.7 grains of 231 with 158 grain lead bullets. Couldn't find any other recipie than Winchester's for using 231 with 158 grain cast bullets, so nothing to compare it with. The Lyman books (47th, 48th, and Pistol & Revolver) don't mention using 231 in .357 magnum, Loadbooks of course repeats the Winchester reccommendation. My Sierra and Nosler books don't cover cast bullets.

OK, they know their own product I expect. Loaded up a series of 10 each of 6.0, 6.1, 6.2. 6.3, 6.4, 6.5, 6.6, and 6.7 grains of 231 with my 158 grain cast lead bullets. To the range to try 'em out.

The 6.0 grain loads produced a tremendous report, a tremendous kick, lead on the outside of the cylinder of my revolver, and mediocre accuracy. Geez, that seemed like a lot of noise and recoil. (Far more so than my loads of 180 grain hard-cast bullets with 2400 powder. I had thought that that load barked loud.)

And I know that 231 is known for Kabooms if double-charged, which is doable because it takes very little space in the cartridge case.

So I stopped the testing. Asked the experts @ the range--One of 'em took a Hornady book off the shelf and found a max load of 231 with 158 cast bullets of 4 point something grains! Everybody agreed that the 6-plus grains of 231 was a huge overcharge.

And 4 plus grains of 231 sounds about right for a 158 grainer, since Winchester's reccommendation for a 200 grain lead bullet is 5.5 grains of 231. So why reccommend so much more powder for the 158 grainer????

Any comments or suggestions? I reload quite a number of rifle loads, and feel I know what I'm doing there, but to the present have only loaded a couple pistol loads, so I'm kind of in unknown waters as it were.

Is Winchester's recipie for 231 with 158 grain lead bullets excessive? Or is a huge noise and recoil and lead deposit to be expected and this is normal? Should I be using a different powder altogether?

Now I have 70 crimped rounds to pull the bullets from, so as to use the powder in my nice tame target loads. Bah! But I sure don't like the thought of Kabooming my nice Smith & Wesson!

 

[P95Carry]

I am leary of using any powder that fast for other than light (read target) loads. I haven't time to check my manuals right now but would suggest going to a much slower powder - which will give a softer pressure peak - sounds like you had a very high spike with those loads.

I equate 231 to same region as Bullseye tho it is probably a tad slower (not much) - and so, much above 4 grains, whether in .357 case or 38 case still ''sounds'' quite generous. IIRC max I ever used with Bullseye was 3.6 grains and a 158 LSWC.

How ''stiff'' a load do you want? Or how mild? I have used 8.5 Blue Dot for ''stronger'' but well sub max loads in .357 and 158's ..... tho it is a tad messy. That BTW is what I have used - NOT a specific recommendation.

So - if you really want to use 231 then go with the lower loads - I am not at all sure why the Win quoted loads are that high .... but then never used it that way or done a look-up to see what is suggested.

 

[Rico567]

The high-end charge of 231 for a 158 gr. lead bullet in Speer's #13 manual is 5.4 grains, supposed to yield 989 fps. Speer interjects a note that velocities should be held below 1000 fps to prevent leading, which probably accounts for the 5.4 grain amount.

TO ME, and YMMV, 6.0 doesn't seem like a gross overcharge, except that you can obviously expect some leading. If I was willing to scrub all that lead out of my bore, I'd just shoot the rounds up if I were not getting severe pressure signs (primer flattening, primer cratering back into the firing pin hole, cases difficult to extract), but I own what is one of the strongest .357 revolvers ever made, the Ruger GP-100, so, once again, what YOU do is up to you.
A loud report and heavy recoil, in and of themselves, are not necessarily indicative of an overcharge. But full-boat .357 loads should generally be loaded with jacketed bullets and a different powder than 231.
I agree with the previous comment that you should be using a slower powder if you want higher velocities. Back when I shot a lot of .357 Magnum, I was always fond of Winchester's now defunct 630 ball powder, and I suspect you can't go wrong with the old standby, Alliant 2400.

 

[DJW]

Just checked my Lee manual and you are right, they do list 231 powder under the 158 gr. cast lead bullet with a start weight of 5.9 gr. and a max of 6.7 gr. in the .357 magnum. Just because it is listed does not mean it is going to be comfortable to shoot. I often start my load development way under the "recommendations" found in loading manuals. Yes, I know some powders are specifically NOT to be used with reduced loads. Just depends on what you are trying to accomplish with your reloads.
DJW

 

[Johnny Guest]

Some good points above.

Smokey Joe - -
You wrote:

. . . So I stopped the testing. Asked the experts @ the range--One of 'em took a Hornady book off the shelf and found a max load of 231 with 158 cast bullets of 4 point something grains! Everybody agreed that the 6-plus grains of 231 was a huge overcharge.

And 4 plus grains of 231 sounds about right for a 158 grainer, since Winchester's reccommendation for a 200 grain lead bullet is 5.5 grains of 231. So why reccommend so much more powder for the 158 grainer????

I have a copy of Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, Fourth Edition, on my lap as I write this. Under .357 Magnum, 158 gr. lead bullets, they show starting load of WIN 231 powder as 4.8 gr, for 850 fps, and a max load of 6.4 gr., for 1100 fps. I suspicion that you could safely go somewhat hotter, but the Hornady 158 lead bullets are swaged, and would probably begin jumping the rifling, being so soft.

I fear the experts at the range were either misreading that particular manual, or perhaps you misremember what they said.

As to, "a max load of 231 with 158 cast bullets of 4 point something grains," in the .357 mag - - - well, I load 4.0 gr of 231 in .38 Special cases with 158 LRN bullets as my standard light practice load. It is safe in my alloy frame snubbies. I go quite a bit higher with 158 LSWC bullets for use in my steel frame revolvers.

As to the rest, I dunno. In what kind of revolver are you shooting these loads? It's really quite a jump from your moderate wadcutter load to a full mag load with a heavier bullet. Might it just be a difference in perception? I know that identical full charge .38 Spl loads fired first in my heavy barrel Model 10, and then in my Model 37 (Airweight Chiefs) is as different as day and night.

Best,
Johnny

 

[Smokey Joe]

Thanx!

Thank you one and all for the responses!

I got hold of these 158 grain SWC's cheap (You know how it is--somebody at the range had bought a "box of reloading junk" and only wanted 1/2 of it so he unloads the other half.)

Just wanted to try 'em out as target loads to see if they did better/worse than the 148 gain WC's I've used successfully for years. Got no excessive pressure signs from the ones I shot but as target loads they are an abject failure, given their noise, recoil, and level of accuracy, not to mention the lead cleanup problem.

I do use a slower powder--12.5 grains of 2400--for my high velocity hunting loads, pushing a 180 hard cast gas check flatnose Beartooth. I can tell you that these loads yesterday out boomed and out recoiled that load in the same pistol, my lovely S&W 586 with a 8 3/8" bbl. (I use the same pistol for bullseye league and for hunting.)

So again thanx for all the interest--will continue my research for a target 158 grain lead SWC load.

 

[fecmech]

Smokey--My Lyman cast bullet handbook lists 4.9/231 with a 158 gr as a max .38 load and 5.2 grs as +P (18500psi). I'd say the Winchester data is on the money. I shoot 4.9/231/158 H&G rn out of my K-38 and it is extreamly accurate and runs a little over 900fps out of my 6" bbl. Nick

 

[Gewehr98]

WW 231 is not a .357 Magnum powder.

WW 296 is what you're looking for when loading past .38 Special velocities.

I've tried the SWC light load thing in .357 Magnum brass, trying to duplicate .38 Special target loads. I've found the lightweight .357 loads to be position-sensitive, and accuracy suffered compared to the same loads in .38 Special brass.

 

[The Bushmaster]

On the other hand...I've used W-231 in my S & W Mod 19 21/2" with super excellent results for years. Right at 8 grains. topped off by a Remington 125 grain SJHP. Excellent acuracy at 15 to 25 yards at almost 1100 fps. I will admit that I use either 2400 or W-296 in my longer barreled .357 mag hand guns. I might also add that 8 grains is right at maximum powder charge and must be worked up to it with care.

Yup...You're right...It's a jacketed bullet and not a solid lead bullet.

 

[Smythe77]

When loading 38Spl with 158gr cast SWC I use 3.4 Gr of 231 with these being my best grouping when using a 6" bull bbl of a PPC revolver.

 

[SCOTCHMAN]

test load 38 special

thank you joe for you post I had a question on my mind about 231 win with
180 lead swc I came up with a load of 4.5 how does that sound to you get back to me I thought it would be a good test load

 

[Jim Watson]

I tried W231 for .357 Major loads to shoot a revolver in IPSC. I needed a 158 gr SWC at 1130 fps to meet the old Major PF of 175 and a little margin.
The Winchester maximum of 6.7 grains gave 1123 fps (6" barrel) and sticky extraction. So I went to Blue Dot, then N105.

I routinely load 4.5 gr W231 and a 158 gr LRN for a full power .38 Special load.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Win231

Scotchman (Fer real, be ye a Hielander, laddie?)--You asked about

231 win with
180 lead swc I came up with a load of 4.5 how does that sound to you

Than sounds like a Kaboom waiting to happen. Win231 is too fast a powder to use with so heavy a bullet. You want a slower powder. I use AA2400 for my big-bullet loads.

A slower powder gives the big bullet time to get moving before it builds up to max pressure, so as to spend most of its energy shoving the bullet up to max velocity.

A lighter bullet has less intertia, so it doesn't need such a shove just to get it moving. The faster powder can just start pushing the lighter bullet at speed.

None of my several sources suggests using Win231 with any heavier bullet than 159 grains.

BTW, good on you doing a search and pulling up this year-old thread, rather than just starting a new one!