Problems in Ohio?

[TrapperReady]

I was just perusing some other sights and came across this gem:

Sixth District Appellate Court Throws Out Beatty Case

DECISION WILL IMPACT PENDING LITIGATION IN CLYDE
NRA NEWS TO FEATURE OFCC AT 10:00 EST TONIGHT

The 6th District Court of Appeals today decided against Bruce Beatty, handing down a 2-1 opinion that has declared that HB12 is not a general law of the State of Ohio. Justice Peter M. Handwork, Arlene Singer concured and Justice Dennis M. Parish strongly dissented in the opinion.

Ohioans For Concealed Carry is performing a review of the twenty page opinion and will have a more detailed analysis of the events as the day progresses.

At first glance the court threw out most of Toledo's positions, but concluded that Ohio's Concealed Carry law is not a general law of the State of Ohio. We feel this conclusion is very wrong, and if upheld, it could have stunning effects on concealed carry statewide. Stay tuned to OhioCCW.org as we continue to review this decision and our reaction:

We find, however, that it is a clear violation of the home-rule amendment for the General Assembly to attempt to limit and preempt all authroity of a municipality regarding the regulation of concealed handguns within its jurisdiction

This decision will no doubt impact OFCC's long stalled litigation in Clyde, Ohio since both cases were in the same appellate district. Ohioans For Concealed Carry is committed to this cause and will consider taking this issue to the Ohio Supreme Court if required.

The lone dissenting opinion from Parish sums up the net effect of this decision and the potential chilling impact it could create:

The statute precisely delineates those limited public locations prohibiting concealed weapons. Those places not expressly incorporated into the list are not subject to the statute. Shortly after the bill's enactment, an amendment was proposed to modify the language expressly expanding the list of covered areas to include parks and recreation areas. The legislature did not adopt this amendment. The failure to adopt an amendment containing a parks provision constitutes compelling indicia that the exclusion of parks or recreation facilities was not an oversight. It was a conscious decision evincing legislative intent to exclude park property from the statute. Now the majority wishes to exercise legislative power from the bench by substituting its judgment for that of our elected representatives. Such an action constitutes an unwarranted judicial intervention.

Given the legislative history, the majority's actions create a conflict between the statute's provisions undermining both legislative intent and the actual provisions of R.C. 2923.126(A). It will enable every city, town, village, township or county within the state to render the statute void by merely enacting a farther-reaching local ordinance. Further, in declaring that R.C. 2923.126 is not a general law, the majority opens Pandora's Box. If R.C. 2923.126 is not a general law then dozens if not hundreds of other state statutes are also not general laws, and local governments can change them at will. Thus, the majority's action will serve only to promote uncertainty in the law.

This is from the Ohioans for Concealed Carry website.

I'm not from Ohio, but thought this might be of interest to quite a few folks.

 

[eagle45]

It will be interesting to see how far this goes in the courts. Ohio's laws are confusing at best in regard to how to carry (in plain site in vehicle) or where you cannot carry, and this will certainly not help. I think it's a stretch to consider city owned property the same as private property. The idea is to make it so hard to follow the law, that you can't.

 

[baz]

Ohio's laws are confusing at best in regard to how to carry (in plain site in vehicle) or where you cannot carry, and this will certainly not help.

Tell me about this. I will be traveling to OH in December. I have a FL concealed carry permit (i.e. reciprocity with OH). Do I understand, though, that while in my vehicle, my gun will need to be out of its normal concealed carry on my person, and "in plain sight"? Could I leave it on my person if it were unloaded? What's is the "best" way to carry, in a vehicle, in the opinion of those who have to daily live with this law?

 

[oldschool]

Ohio CCW

Hate to say this but Ohio’s problems with cars & ccw are much more difficult for Ohio residents than for people there from out of state. Why? Simple, when an Ohio LEO oulls over an Ohio resident they can either check for a permit or the information is given to them when they run the drivers license, for an out of state person traveling in Ohio (varies by state) but the CCW information the information is not available through a request of information from the drivers license alone. Concealed means concealed and you “should” notify LEO for your piece when you’ve been pulled over (generally) but Ohio’s CCW law being what it is I’m betting that the odds of the LEO spotting my CCW (very slim) are better than me getting into legal issues if I notify them of it (almost certain).
Lets get daft Taft out of there and see what the next legislative sessions bring. OHP needs to realize that their risk from CCW holders is near on nonexistent and that the solution for the possibility of being shot while pulling someone over is better solved with tactics than legislation.:banghead:

 

[baz]

Concealed means concealed and you “should” notify LEO for your piece when you’ve been pulled over (generally) but Ohio’s CCW law being what it is I’m betting that the odds of the LEO spotting my CCW (very slim) are better than me getting into legal issues if I notify them of it (almost certain).

I don't know if I'm dense, or what, but I'm not following this. As an out of state driver, are you saying I'm "almost certain" to get into legal issues if I notify them I'm carrying? That's not what I want! I want to know what is the best way to travel to OH, and avoid legal issues, should I happen to get stopped.

 

[rtroha]

There are three legal ways to carry a loaded gun in a car for those who are licensed:

1. In a holster which is in "plain sight". The holster must be on your person, not loose on the seat or attached to your seat belt.

2. Locked in your glove compartment.

3. Locked in a case which is in "plain sight".

I generally move my IWB holster to the one o'clock position and make sure my shirt is tucked behind it, so it is visible. In addtion, my seat belt runs behind the holster which helps keep my shirt in place and the holster visible.

There is no legal way for an unlicensed person to carry a loaded gun in a car in Ohio.

 

[Blackfork]

More Ohio Laws Now!

It's obvious to me that Ohio just needs to write some more laws! I especially hope they regulate the unliscensed possession of assault rifles and handguns by non-resident children! Then the Ohio State Police can roll up to Camp Perry in July and August and make a lot of important and televised arrests of Junior shooters at the National Matches.

Ohio legislators also need to be appraised of the many out of state visitors in possession of assault rifles, pistols, ammunition, explosive components, et, et, that happens yearly in the Port Clinton/Sandusky area. I think marshalling SWAT teams from all over the state and surrounding states, plus the BATFE, FBI, and Fed Marshalls ought to be involved. They could land on the beach and unload out of horse trailers behind Rodriegez and Viale Ranges during a pit change and catch these malcreants in a surprise pincer move. Or come in at midnight and kick in the doors of all the huts on cue. Ohio LEOs could stuff a prison and seize millions of dollars of assets with the right leadership!

More laws. That's what Ohio needs!

 

[baz]

rtroha, thanks for the clarification. So if it's winter time, and I have it in a holster on my belt, normally covered by a winter coat, I need to be sure the coat is off, or not hiding it, when in the car, right?

There is no legal way for an unlicensed person to carry a loaded gun in a car in Ohio.

If I'm just "transporting" it, would it be enough to unload it? Unload it, and put a trigger lock on it?

 

[Coronach]

1. The law in the state of Ohio is screwed up.

2. Advising people, even in a backhanded manner, to break the law ("you 'should' tell the cop...", "he probably won't see my CCW...") is a very very bad idea. You're about to parley an uncomfortable moment of conversation into a potential felony charge. Not very bright.

3. A quick rundown of the ways to travel in OH with a gun in the car:

A. With a CCW permit, loaded, on person in a holster, in plain sight.
B. With a CCW permit, loaded, locked in the glove box.
C. With or without a CCW permit, unloaded, in the trunk, in a locked box.

Now, the last one is overly conservative, but it will get you past any scrutiny unscathed. If you want a more nuanced writeup, check out packing.org.

If you chose to CCW it per A or B, you must inform the LEO upon contact. As in, the first words out of your mouth should be, "Sir, I have a CCW permit and I am armed", while your hands rest comfortably on the steering wheel. If you have your CCW permit and are not armed, it's still not a bad idea to acknowledge the fact that you're permitted but are not packing.

And one might be surprised what computerized checks can and do bring back from other states.

Mike

 

[rtroha]

baz:

Yes, make sure your coat doesn't hide the gun. Picture a police officer standing at either side of your vehicle looking in at you during a traffic stop. If the officer can see your holstered gun, you will be OK.

Unloaded guns should be as inaccessible as possible. If you have a trunk, put it in the trunk. I have a station wagon. Each non-carry gun is locked in a case and any ammo is locked in a separate case. I then stow these cases in the back of my wagon.

I think the intent is to make sure unlicensed people transporting firearms don't have a gun "ready at hand" while operating a motor vehicle.

Bottom line: loaded guns by licensed people must be transported as I said in my original message, otherwise transport as if you were unlicensed.

 

[eagle45]

3. A quick rundown of the ways to travel in OH with a gun in the car:

A. With a CCW permit, loaded, on person in a holster, in plain sight.
B. With a CCW permit, loaded, locked in the glove box.
C. With or without a CCW permit, unloaded, in the trunk, in a locked box.

All true and very good post. Another option should be added though:
D: With a CCW permit, loaded, in a locked case in plain sight.

The 'in plain sight' is yet to be legally defined and appears to be at the descretion of the officer. I hesitate to offer legal advice, but as Coronach said, betting that your CCW will go undetected is not a good idea. In addtion, if you are in your vehicle your concealed weapon cannot legally be concealed.

Again, if you choose option D, you must inform the officer. OFCC's website and forum has a lot of information about encounters with officers.

There are a couple of bills (HB 347 and HB 541) that would greatly improve Ohio's laws, if they are ever passed.

 

[baz]

Thanks, everyone. I'm saving this thread to review before I head to OH at Christmas time.

 

[eagle45]

Here is an option I use in cold weather, when doing the "Ohio tuck" with a heavy coat on is uncomfortable.

http://homebasedgroup.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=2

Basically an elastic thigh holster. Before I exit the vehicle, I transfer to my OWB holster.

 

[AZRickD]

That might not stay put in anything above a light crash.

Rick

 

[Coronach]

Lots of people do that, or buy a leg-drop thigh rig. A very real advantage is that you can draw very quickly from that position, if you must do so.

The plain-sight requirement is still pretty stupid, IMO. It causes far more problems than it solves (that being: zero solved, several caused).

Mike

 

[Coronach]

Also, if you do carry on an out-of-state permit (like Florida's), it might be helpful to carry with you a copy of the Ohio AG's list of states with which OH has reciprocity. In an ideal world, any LEO making contact with you would be aware of the reciprocity provision and be able to quickly determine that your permit is valid in the Buckeye State. However, you're not in an ideal world- you're in Ohio.

Mike

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Says It All

The two paragraphs from Justice Parish says it all. Twice. First, he summed up why the carry law is and should remain the general law in Ohio. Second, he shot the whole twenty page opinion down in just two paragraphs. Shows you how much fancy footwork it takes to take the law on an excursion into the proclivities of carnal knowledge, and how few words it takes to expose the adulteration.

If you need more than a few words to express an opinion and come to a logical conclusion, you're spinning and someone's rights are the pivot point.

These leftist judges make me sick. Now I know why. It's motion sickness from all the spinning!

Woody

"I pledge allegiance to the rights that made and keep me free. I will preserve and defend those rights for all who live in this nation; founded on the belief and principles that those rights are inalienable and essential to the pursuit and preservation of life, liberty, and happiness." B.E.Wood