Profanity

[velojym]

I wasn't saying the use of profanity wasn't rational, in and of itself, just that it usually follows when the brain slips out of gear. I do have an appreciation for creative cursing (the "nuts" story, for instance), but only when done with reason intact.

 

[walking arsenal]

I can't recall were I read it but profanity is all in the use.

"Back the ##### off!" Is a warning.
"Back off mother ####er!" Is a provoking insult and it can be used against you.

It can also be a good attention getter. Swearing is abrasive and grabs the attention of everyone around you. Drawing attention to yourself when you're in trouble can be a good thing. Maybe a life saver.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I can't recall were I read it

Maybe in Post #10?

 

[dcludwig]

I can't recall were I read it

Maybe in Post #10?

I had to actually laugh out loud.....


Now, I don't swear.. I mean, if you don't count when I stub my big toe in the middle of the night... or maybe when that blue-haired lady swerves across 3 lanes to exit right in front of me ... and,well, yeah, I guess when I get awakened by a company call-out at 3 am... oh, never mind.

I actually don't LIKE to swear and think it is somewhat indicative of poor or lazy means of communication. I'm speaking primarily of myself on this. Easier to use that profane word than to find a better and more descriptive adjective. But I think many have already touched upon the key point - it is the context (and the company) in which it is used.

In the OP's situation I think it is/was definitely a red flag. Not that I think it screamed of imminent danger, but when a conversation tailspins that quickly you have to wonder what's next? It could have been a meth-head doing some quick labor to buy his next hit and who knows where his mind is at. I think the OP did exactly the right thing.

Why allow this jerk (and perhaps worse) verbally accost people? The reaction to his query hardly warranted HIS profane reaction and it was very likely many more folks were going to be similarly accosted (and maybe worse when the meth was really wearing off). Just my view, anyway.

 

[beatledog7]

Profanity has its place, but quickly becomes ineffective if overused.

Neither of my parents used profanity, and since I grew up in church I didn't hear a lot of other people using it either. College was a revelation. Everybody used it all the time, it seemed. So I learned to use it, too. The I spent 27+ years in the Navy.

After all that, I found I was almost oblivious to it, but I didn't like being that way. So I decided to stop, and I pretty much have. I never use profanity around children or in church, and I use it sparingly otherwise.

Drop about one f-bomb a month, and people who know you know you mean it! Drop several per sentence, and nobody cares. See what I mean.

 

[JustinJ]

Profanity is the use of words that have a stronger meaning than certain others. Nothing more. Why people act as though they have some special powe ris beyond me. One can provoke an encounter with or without them and can use them withour provoking an encounter. Constant cussing makes one sound unintelligent but like eveyrthing else there are times when they apply. Exercising my 2nd amendment will not stop me from exercising my 1st.

 

[Loosedhorse]

when a conversation tailspins that quickly you have to wonder what's next?

Thanks, dcludwig. That had a lot to do with it.

I mean, I think we all get that, if it's a crowded parking lot before Christmas and someone thinks you "stole" "his" parking spot, you might get profanity. I'd still worry about that guy more than someone who just shook his head and drove off (my typical reaction).

I'm not sure if the swearing indicated to me anger and loss of control, or just "there's something wrong about this guy." I did not fear imminent physical attack, but rather that we might be headed there for no reason I could figure.

We've talked about The Gift of Fear. About listening when some part of your mind tries to tell you something. In this case, I was just about rid of this guy, and I was "told": Leaving him here is not the right move. Someone needs to know about him, and now.

It seemed a simple enough thing to do.

As I said, I realized later the profanity tripped my switch. If the guy had simply said (impolitely) "Fine, the heck with you!" I would have still been puzzled, but that wouldn't have turned me around.

Why people act as though they have some special powe ris beyond me.

Well, I would suppose, that for some people they do have some special effect. I undertand that for you they don't, but that's not universally true. We certainly know that for (some?) African Americans there is a particular word that has a lot of power. I guess we could say it "shouldn't", but it does.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The deliberate, studied use of profanity offers you one more step in a series of verbal escalations that might possibly help you communicate effectively with a potential predator who speaks a somewhat different language - the language of the street. It offers you a chance to define your own use of force as starting at "soft words," escalating to "loud words" and then going from there to "hard words," and from there to whatever you could reasonably define as necessary to manage the situation as it evolved.

From Southnarc -

Now let’s discuss verbalization a bit.

If you have asked him to stop and he doesn’t what then?

If you have range, which we understand is directly proportional to our
awareness; we can ramp up our verbage from a request to a command.
What I also recommend is that you change the specific language and
increase the volume. So if we start at “Hey buddy would you hold there?”
we’ll kick it up next to “I said BACK-UP!”

What if he still doesn’t stop or say he begins to verbalize somewhat but still
keeps advancing?

Once again, we can kick up our verbage a bit by adding some profanity.

Now there are some trainers that will tell you to never, ever use profanity.
What I’ve seen over my career in law enforcement is that profanity is part of criminal vernacular and bad guys understand it. If you do elect to use
profanity, use it to accentuate the message and don’t directly insult someone
with it. There’s a big difference between “Back the [bleep] up” and “Back up, [you
bleep]”.

So if we have range and time we can escalate within our verbal options
from:

A polite request to stop advancing.
A louder command to stop advancing, using different specific language.
Shout the same command at the top of your lungs and accentuate that with
carefully selected common criminal vernacular, i.e. profanity. - http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf

This is not to say it's an approach everyone will want to take in every situation. But knowing it's an option might provide you with a way to talk your way out of a situation you might otherwise have to fight your way out of. Most criminals in most circumstances do not want to gather an audience, and a shouted command laced with some choice words is going to attract every eye in earshot. That might be enough to extricate you from whatever your conversational partner had in mind for you...

 

[Loosedhorse]

a shouted command laced with some choice words is going to attract every eye in earshot

Maybe I'll just stick with the shouted command. As you know, it never got to shouting (by me) in this case.

profanity is part of criminal vernacular

Cuts both ways, doesn't it--criminals understand it, but you sound like a criminal if you use it.

I mean, some might say that when you go out, you should be dressed in the latest gang-banger fashion because that might intimidate criminals, and it's the mode of dress they understand. Trouble is, by adopting criminal fashion, you become harder to ID as a good guy--perhaps by LEOs, and certainly by potential witnesses.

So (while I can always change my mind), I'll decline to adopt criminal-culture dress for now. Or criminal-culture language.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

This has grown into an interesting conversation. I'm reminded of my childhood. My father was the manager of a large chemical plant. He NEVER used profanity around our home or in front of our family. But over the telephone when he got a call at the house from the plant I would occasionally hear eavesdropped words that were, uh...unfamiliar to me, usually through gritted teeth, usually near the finish of the conversation. When I got old enough to ask my Pop about those words, he very graciously explained profanity this way. "Son, use profanity only rarely and never to insult anyone. Always save profanity to the end of the argument, if you use it early it looses strength. And if you ever have need of profanity, having exhausted all other options, use it forcefully & accurately. If you'll remember these guidelines, the SHOCK of profanity coming from you will usually get the listener's COMPLETE and UNDIVIDED attention." Profanity, like an adverb, is most effective when applied correctly. Thanks Pop.

 

[JustinJ]

Well, I would suppose, that for some people they do have some special effect. I undertand that for you they don't, but that's not universally true. We certainly know that for (some?) African Americans there is a particular word that has a lot of power. I guess we could say it "shouldn't", but it does.

Well, in reality the "power" of that word seems to only be present when used by people of certain groups but not another, which is my point. Words only have the power people give them and sometimes they are only given power when it's convenient.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

...but you sound like a criminal if you use it.

"Sticks & Stones can Break My Bones but Words can Get You...Arrested?" Oh come on, using profanity doesn't make you sound like a criminal. Now breaking the law? THAT makes you sound like a criminal to me.

 

[jmstevens2]

Arrest every soldier, sailor marine and fireman I know then. Most cops too.

 

[easyg]

but you sound like a criminal if you use it.

I disagree.

Criminals don't use foul language any more than non-criminals.


Can you spot a habitual speeder by his salty language?
How about an embezzler or "inside trader"?
Are tax cheats and con artists notorious for cursing?
Do child molesters and child porn makers curse more than the averge person?
When looking for a serial killer do police round up all the guys using foul language?
What about counterfeiters and forgery artists?


I think your notions on profanity have blinded you somewhat.


BTW, I work in a hospital and believe me, profanity is no measure of one's education.
I hear nurses and doctors and surgeons using foul language all the time.
I hardly ever hear the housekeepers or custodians cursing.

 

[oneounceload]

Sounds like some folks might want to listen to George Carlin's "7 words you can't say on television" again - profanity is just words, nothing more. It is HOW they are used (as previously mentioned), that determines whether any threat exists

 

[Loosedhorse]

Well there are at least three conversations going on here.

1. Should a person use profanity/ does profanity have a special place in language/etc.? I've obviously got opinions there, but nothing that belongs in tactics. (Couple of really amusing stories there, but I digress...)

2. Is the use of profanity by someone confronting you an additional warning sign of bad intention/escalation toward violence? I expect that varies in a lot of different environments. When used between strangers in a place where that is not customary, yes, I take it (and took it) as an additional warning sign.

3. Is it tactically a good idea for a defender to use profanity? Now, that's interesting.

I have taken some courses on armed SD. I have been made to practice during those drills some "verbal compliance" or "command voice." All of us at the line shouting (as we drew our guns) "STOP!" or "DROP THE WEAPON!" And I have practiced the same myself at my club.

I was never drilled on "GET THE ____ BACK!" and I would be reluctant to practice that at my club. How great is a technique if you can't practice it?

Also, there is the legal concept of "incitement" or "fighting words." You plan to say (or do say) "GET THE ____ BACK!" but it either comes out or is heard as "GET BACK YOU ____!" Remember, witness memories--just like any of our memories--are not perfect. No one may have noticed what the aggressor did, but they will notice your yell. Is it going to sound (when remembered later) like a warning, or like an incitement to violence?

And what if you just happen to hit a "magic word" that actually gets your attacker's goat, and now he feels he MUST escalate; when a different word would have permitted him to just walk away, and ended it.

Tactically, to me, profanity seems to have more weaknesses than strengths.

I think your notions on profanity have blinded you somewhat.

Well of course they may have--just as your notions may have blinded you.

 

[ACP]

LoosedHorse, you are a better man than me in not swearing. It's one of my major faults.

I agree with your premise, that the use of profanity by a stranger is a danger signal that they are unstable and their anger is escalating.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I cuss like a sailor (or mechanic, which I am).

I very rarely swear at other people.

If I become involved in a hostile situation that entails any verbal communication between myself and the aggressor, it will most likley include profanity.

I'm willing to bet that people with the same tendencies make up a very significant portion of the population.

Is the use of profanity by someone confronting you an additional warning sign of bad intention/escalation toward violence?

In and of itself, I'd say no. But the fact that it is most likely accompanied by a hostile tone and body language to match dictate that it is a warning:

Hey, you!

<ignore>

Hey! **** head! Yeah, you, *******!

We can all imagine how the tone and body language would be in the second utternace. But I submit that the words themselves have little to do with the increased threat; It's the hostility.

Now, if you've ignored someone and they mutter some profanity but do not approach or raise their voice to an angry level, no, I wouldn't consider it a threat. Rude, but not menacing.

 

[Ringolevio]

Forgive me for preaching, but...

OK, here goes...

I don't mean to get on anyone's case (or to hijack this into a discussion of definitions) but, as a wordsmith and a moralist, I'd like to point out that, while many people use the terms interchangeably, profanity is really not the same thing as obscenity or vulgarity.

The "f-bomb", for example, is an obscenity and a vulgarity. It can have its place as an intensifier, although not in polite company.

The "GD-bomb", however, is a profanity because it takes the Lord's name in vain. It literally profanes His Name.

So, it could be said (and I believe) that obscenities and vulgarities can be offensive to our fellow man, but profanity is offensive to God.

Therefore, while I am not above employing obscenities and vulgarities in certain situations (sometimes even for humor!), I strive to eliminate profanities from my speech in any and all situations.

One of my pet peeves with our society is that profanities are more easily tolerated than are obscenities and vulgarities. By my reckoning, it ought to be the other way around.

 

[col.lemat]

you should of

sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. stick out your tounge then walk away

 

[Loosedhorse]

Wordsmiths welcome!

You might be right. "Profane" literally means "before (outside) the temple," and its first meaning may have simply been "unconsecrated"--that is, not sacred. However, the meaning toward desecrated, blasphemous, or sacrilegious seems to have followed very closely.

If it matters, M-W's first definition of "profane" continues to be "secular"; the idea of "defiling" comes up later...as do both obscene and vulgar. I think "blasphemies" more clearly specifies the "profanities" you speak of (but do not speak! ).

I meant profanity broadly--and I think that's a correct use.

 

[conw]

Cuts both ways, doesn't it--criminals understand it, but you sound like a criminal if you use it.

I mean, some might say that when you go out, you should be dressed in the latest gang-banger fashion because that might intimidate criminals, and it's the mode of dress they understand.

This is pretty apples-to-oranges. The context of using that language is as a tool you have at your disposal to get someone to cease approaching, and allow you to further assess the situation.

It simply means "I mean business buddy, I'm not kidding and I'm not the soft target you thought I was."

Totally changing your mode of dress in hopes of...I don't know what...is totally different than potentially adding an F-bomb to a command to make it more effective and attention-grabbing.

This whole "good guy bad guy" posturing thing on S&T is getting old. Criminals are people who have made bad decisions, but they do not necessarily view themselves as "criminals" or you as a "good guy," and these distinctions have very little bearing in a life or death encounter. And for that matter a court of law will not necessarily be impressed by your Merit Badges and polite language or Sunday best dress.

If you can disrupt a BG's OODA loop by using some profanity and quick thinking, and avoid putting some JHP in him, that'd probably look a lot better in the eyes of bystanders, LEO, and the courts, than the alternative.

 

[Loosedhorse]

they do not necessarily view themselves as "criminals" or you as a "good guy,"

Not my point.

My point is if profanity is generally acknowledged as the "part of the criminal vernacular", then is your use of it during a confrontation more likely to get witnesses to assume you're a criminal (or at least a co-agressor)?

Also, to the extent that criminals are "used" to profanity or use it constantly, its value as an added "OODA-shock" or emphasis when you use it on one is questionable.

Again, some seem convinced here that profanity gives your "STOP!" order some pizzazz or authority over attackers that cannot be achieved without it; and assume your use of profanity will not color the witnesses's impression of you.

I think both tenets are questionable, and that affects the "value" of profanity as a tactical tool.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I think both tenets are questionable, and that affects the "value" of profanity as a tactical tool.

Can you offer any street experience that would lend credibility to your position? I know Southnarc's background and have some idea of the depth and breadth of his activities in law enforcement undercover narcotics work (mostly 'buy and bust' operations) that gives him the background to make the statements he does... I have found his material to be well thought out and based on dealing effectively with first hand exposure to the kind of people who are apt to cause Joe Citizen problems on the street.

 

[JustinJ]

So, it could be said (and I believe) that obscenities and vulgarities can be offensive to our fellow man, but profanity is offensive to God.

Therefore, while I am not above employing obscenities and vulgarities in certain situations (sometimes even for humor!), I strive to eliminate profanities from my speech in any and all situations.

One of my pet peeves with our society is that profanities are more easily tolerated than are obscenities and vulgarities. By my reckoning, it ought to be the other way around.

Well, our society has a 1st amendment which means we don't have to limit what we say, ecspecially to comply with the religion of others. Our "society" should remember that and realize it has no business 'not tolerating' speech.