Proofing advantages.
- Thread starter Col4570
- Start date
- Status
BullSlinger
Member
3212
CVA sold ML guns with Spanish barrels and went as far as saying they were safe with three pellets of Pyrodex or 777 (150gr of bp sub). Spanish company that made the barrels did not proof them ( well they did four every six months to a year ).Barrels were all proof-marked and shipped to USA for CVA and sold on US market.
Many shooters were injured. And CVA changed hands.
Traditions also bought barrels from same Spanish manufacturer. They were lucky that not as many blew up. Both companies still buy barrels from same manufacturer to this day. US law does not require that barrels be proofed as ML Guns are not firearms per BATF.
Makers of BP subs (Pyrodex and 777) Data Sheets state the max load of 2 pellets 100gr. No exceptions.
Links for more information
http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_tragedy.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm
CVA sold ML guns with Spanish barrels and went as far as saying they were safe with three pellets of Pyrodex or 777 (150gr of bp sub). Spanish company that made the barrels did not proof them ( well they did four every six months to a year ).Barrels were all proof-marked and shipped to USA for CVA and sold on US market.
Many shooters were injured. And CVA changed hands.
Traditions also bought barrels from same Spanish manufacturer. They were lucky that not as many blew up. Both companies still buy barrels from same manufacturer to this day. US law does not require that barrels be proofed as ML Guns are not firearms per BATF.
Makers of BP subs (Pyrodex and 777) Data Sheets state the max load of 2 pellets 100gr. No exceptions.
Links for more information
http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_tragedy.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm
Last edited:
J-Bar
Member
This is really interesting, thanks for posting your experience.
I am not a gun builder, so I had never thought about the proofing process before. I did not know that a private builder could have a barrel proofed (proven??) this way.
Are you using a proof house in England because you live there? Are there companies in the United States that provide this service? Just curious why you chose a company in England.
I am not a gun builder, so I had never thought about the proofing process before. I did not know that a private builder could have a barrel proofed (proven??) this way.
Are you using a proof house in England because you live there? Are there companies in the United States that provide this service? Just curious why you chose a company in England.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
US Law doesn't require centerfires to be proofed either.
J Bar,I live in England,the two Proof Houses are there to Proof Guns and Rifles plus other ordnance to both the public and the trade.It is illegal to sell or make a gift of an unproved firearm here.I have always submitted my Projects for my own safety and that of others who might use my Guns.I believe that in the USA most manufacturers have in house proving.
Regards.
Regards.
Last edited:
4v50 Gary,I made the Barrel as I have made others.34 inches,octagonal to round,Nocks Breach with stainless Steel coned touch hole,under Rib with Ramrod Thimbles.Unfortunately the Barrel Tube proved to be of the wrong material.
BullSlinger
Member
Colt4570, You are correct. Manufactures of quality guns do their own in-house proofing in this country (US). Would be much safer for shooters here if there were a requirement proofing.
Col4570 I have been amazed at how they built barrels back in the 17 and 1800,s since you seem to have knowledge in this area do you know how
or have any pictures of a barrel borer?
I understand the twisted weld forged barrels on shotguns of the era was something similar done on/with rifles?
I just cant see how a barrel could be bored so long and straight before the advent of modern machining.
any help or imformation you could provide would be apreciated
or have any pictures of a barrel borer?
I understand the twisted weld forged barrels on shotguns of the era was something similar done on/with rifles?
I just cant see how a barrel could be bored so long and straight before the advent of modern machining.
any help or imformation you could provide would be apreciated
PRD1
Member
damoc:
Originally, barrels were forge-welded from strips ('skelps') of iron around a mandrel slightly under the desired bore size.
Most such barrels were made-up of a number of short skelps butt-welded together and wrap-welded around the mandrel, though some barrel makers made a long, flat skelp and 'folded' it around the mandrel which resulted in a finished tube with one longitudinal seam
The barrel forger took some care to keep the tube as straight as possible, and of as near the final outside shape and dimension as could be done.
Because the mandrel tended to stick in the bore if too long a weld was attempted, it had to be driven out and re-inserted about every inch of the welded length.
When the tube was completely welded, the bore was reamed-up to final diameter and finish using the short bit (a twisted, square reamer on a long shank), followed by the long bit (a square, steel cutting bit several inches long, attached to a rod long enough to completely pass through the tube) - the bit was arranged to be raised for successive passes by inserting shims between the bit and the rod until the final desired bore diameter and finish was achieved. The long bit actually can produce a very good bore, both for consistency of diameter and finish, but is very labor intensive. It is also true that the bores of many antique barrels are not truly straight, and never were.
Finish-reamed blanks were usually straightened before finishing the exterior of the barrel, or rifling it - this was done by eye, looking through the bore at a straight line or edge, rotating the barrel, noting where and how the shadow cast down the bore appeared to deviate from a straight line, and bending the barrel with a press or hammer and anvil until it was visibly straight. There were other methods, too, but this is the best, and is still used, though most modern barrel makers do not need to straighten their barrels, and it is better not to do so, if not necessary.
There are still practitioners of traditional arms making who forge-weld barrels, ream and rifle them with traditional tools - there is a very good video of the entire process of making an American longrifle at Colonial Williamsburg in Wallace Gusler's shop, later operated by his apprentice, Herschel House - the video is 'Gunsmith of Williamsburg', and can probably be viewed on-line.
Also, there is an excellent article on the processes and tools in the 'Foxfire 5' book, one of a series on traditional arts and crafts.
Hope this helps.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike
Originally, barrels were forge-welded from strips ('skelps') of iron around a mandrel slightly under the desired bore size.
Most such barrels were made-up of a number of short skelps butt-welded together and wrap-welded around the mandrel, though some barrel makers made a long, flat skelp and 'folded' it around the mandrel which resulted in a finished tube with one longitudinal seam
The barrel forger took some care to keep the tube as straight as possible, and of as near the final outside shape and dimension as could be done.
Because the mandrel tended to stick in the bore if too long a weld was attempted, it had to be driven out and re-inserted about every inch of the welded length.
When the tube was completely welded, the bore was reamed-up to final diameter and finish using the short bit (a twisted, square reamer on a long shank), followed by the long bit (a square, steel cutting bit several inches long, attached to a rod long enough to completely pass through the tube) - the bit was arranged to be raised for successive passes by inserting shims between the bit and the rod until the final desired bore diameter and finish was achieved. The long bit actually can produce a very good bore, both for consistency of diameter and finish, but is very labor intensive. It is also true that the bores of many antique barrels are not truly straight, and never were.
Finish-reamed blanks were usually straightened before finishing the exterior of the barrel, or rifling it - this was done by eye, looking through the bore at a straight line or edge, rotating the barrel, noting where and how the shadow cast down the bore appeared to deviate from a straight line, and bending the barrel with a press or hammer and anvil until it was visibly straight. There were other methods, too, but this is the best, and is still used, though most modern barrel makers do not need to straighten their barrels, and it is better not to do so, if not necessary.
There are still practitioners of traditional arms making who forge-weld barrels, ream and rifle them with traditional tools - there is a very good video of the entire process of making an American longrifle at Colonial Williamsburg in Wallace Gusler's shop, later operated by his apprentice, Herschel House - the video is 'Gunsmith of Williamsburg', and can probably be viewed on-line.
Also, there is an excellent article on the processes and tools in the 'Foxfire 5' book, one of a series on traditional arts and crafts.
Hope this helps.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike
Last edited:
PRD1
Member
damoc:
if you intend to forge-weld a barrel, you should know that the originals were made of wrought iron, and the barrel makers preferred the 'softest' and most easily worked iron they could get - some barrels could actually be 'pared' with a pocketknife.
Gusler found in his experimental days that mild steel, the only material available to him at the time, was more difficult to work with, because at forging temperature, it was easily overheated, burning-out the carbon and rendering it useless for barrel making. It was possible to use mild steel, but much more difficult, he said.
There are modern traditional weaponsmiths who actually smelt their own iron from high-grade ore, working-up a bloom that they can forge into blades, etc.
If you can find some old muzzleloading barrels in poor condition (past restoration), they could also serve as a source of good wrought iron, though later ML barrels (post 1850, say) were also made from steel, usually drilled-out from the solid bar or rolled from a pre-perforated tube - you'll have to identify the material properly.
In any case, good luck!
PRD1 - mhb - Mike
if you intend to forge-weld a barrel, you should know that the originals were made of wrought iron, and the barrel makers preferred the 'softest' and most easily worked iron they could get - some barrels could actually be 'pared' with a pocketknife.
Gusler found in his experimental days that mild steel, the only material available to him at the time, was more difficult to work with, because at forging temperature, it was easily overheated, burning-out the carbon and rendering it useless for barrel making. It was possible to use mild steel, but much more difficult, he said.
There are modern traditional weaponsmiths who actually smelt their own iron from high-grade ore, working-up a bloom that they can forge into blades, etc.
If you can find some old muzzleloading barrels in poor condition (past restoration), they could also serve as a source of good wrought iron, though later ML barrels (post 1850, say) were also made from steel, usually drilled-out from the solid bar or rolled from a pre-perforated tube - you'll have to identify the material properly.
In any case, good luck!
PRD1 - mhb - Mike
alsaqr
Member
Some old time gunsmiths actually cut the barrel flats with a draw knife.
In countries requiring proof, the proof is part of gun control. A gun cannot be sold without being proved*, and once proved, the gun is registered and subsequent sale must be approved by the authorities. Some folks think government proof testing in the U.S. would be a good idea for safety, but proof testing is (AFAIK) never a standalone; it is always combined with registration and licensing.
*Even where barrels can be proved in the unfinished state, final proof of the gun in the finished (and serial numbered) state is required.
Jim
*Even where barrels can be proved in the unfinished state, final proof of the gun in the finished (and serial numbered) state is required.
Jim
BullSlinger
Member
Thanks Jim
I had never thought about keeping track of guns via proofing but after reading your post it really is quite simple for the powers that be to know who has what. Thanks for the info.
I had never thought about keeping track of guns via proofing but after reading your post it really is quite simple for the powers that be to know who has what. Thanks for the info.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Col4570,
But they know who sent it, and they know who theyreturned it to.
But they know who sent it, and they know who theyreturned it to.
- Status