Proper Length of pull for Pistol Grip Shotgun

[PoserHoser]

I've had a Benelli SuperNova Tactical for about a year and my only complaint is the LOP. Is there a proper way to measure for a pistol grip shotgun? The reason I ask is because with a bird gun you shoulder it towards the outside of your peck next to your shoulder. With a pistol grip shotgun you move the butt towards the center of your chest to better manage recoil.
Does anyone know the standard length of pull for a gun with this type of stock? Thanks for your time.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Whatever fits you individually ...

Shorter is probably better. 12.5" seems like a happy medium for conventional stocks, it works for a lot of folks who have tried it once they get used to it. That lets you square up your stance more, which is appropriate for a fighting shotgun as opposed to a sporting gun.

 

[PoserHoser]

Thanks! With bolt guns i usually have my stocks shortened by 3/4 of an inch. I'm thinking 11 and 3/4 would be just about right on this particular gun.

 

[Fred Fuller]

It's easier and neater to shorten till you get it right, than to go too short initially and then have to s t r e t c h it back out ...

 

[rcmodel]

The old school method with conventional stocks was to hold the grip in a normal shooting grip.
Then bend your arm at the elbow and lay the butt against your biceps.

It would have too be a mighty small adult to need a 11 3/4" LOP on any gun with any type of grip.

Unless you are wearing full body armor, or a very heavy hunting coat?

A stock that short will beat you senseless in no time flat.
Not to mention a bloody nose from your thumb hitting you in the face every shot.

rc

 

[oneounceload]

The reason I ask is because with a bird gun you shoulder it towards the outside of your peck next to your shoulder. With a pistol grip shotgun you move the butt towards the center of your chest to better manage recoil.

The measurements should be the same

 

[Inebriated]

Not to mention a bloody nose from your thumb hitting you in the face every shot.

That only tends to happen once... besides, this is a pistol grip stock that OP is talking about, not a traditional.

 

[MCgunner]

Depends on the person. I've not got a ninja gun, but on sporting guns prefer the 14" standard unless I'm wearing a big coat with layers under it, then 13 works for me. But, I'm 6 feet with normal arms. A short guy with shorter arms will want less LOP. Only you can decide, IMHO.

I don't really know how a PG will affect the LOP, never owned a PG stock and never will, but I wouldn't think there'd be a big difference. Could be wrong, though, but I'd know by shouldering the gun I'm bettin'.

 

[rbernie]

That lets you square up your stance more, which is appropriate for a fighting shotgun as opposed to a sporting gun.

Well, it's certainly appropriate for those wearing body armor. On the other hand, I've done a bunch of shooting at fast-moving targets (horizontally launched clays) and a squared up stance doesn't give me any better freedom of movement nor faster broad area target-to-target transitions.

With a pistol grip shotgun you move the butt towards the center of your chest to better manage recoil.

A squared up stance requires me to center the recoil onto my collarbone and chest and out of the shoulder pocket, which by my experiences is LESS comfortable for folk that shoot often and for extended periods and doesn't improve my shot-to-shot splits one whit.

I am still a proponent of a traditional bladed stance for those folk that don't train and fight in body armor - the bladed stance evolved as an effective means to use a long arm because it presented the least silhouette to incoming fire (for those not using body armor), allowed effective control of the firearm, and seems to best fit the biomechanics of the human body.

Having said that, I have been taught to measure LOP by gauging the distance between the shooters stong hand thumb and nose, with the optimum distance being two to four finger widths. I realize that measuring this distance with a PG stock is a bit challenging, but my point is that I believe there to be an inherent value in trying to duplicate the feel and response between my HD/SD guns and my sporting guns, and as such I would make an effort to duplicate their LOP.

 

[oneounceload]

But, I'm 6 feet with normal arms.

And I am 6'3" and some guns I go with a 15" some 14-3/4, and one is 14-3/8

A lot of that has to do with the grip style itself. An English grip allows for a longer LOP, whereas an AR allows for the shortest. In between there are standard "pistol grips" as on a Browning target gun and relaxed pistol grips AKA Prince of Wales that are closer to an English grip

 

[MCgunner]

I'm with rbernie on shooting technique. Squaring up on the target would be uncomfortable for me and allow me no more mobility IMHO than the way I normally shoot. And, moving the stock to my bone structure, clavicle for instance, just hurts thinkin' about it. Then, there's your cheek/face. A properly fitted standard stock doesn't bother my cheek bone. An ill fitted stock can cut me up like a right cross from George Foreman. It was in quest for THIS remedy that I discovered how proper fitted stocks can greatly reduce felt recoil.

And, well, when duck hunting, feet mired in muck, I've had to shoot off balance over my shoulder, to the strong side of my shoulder, all sorts of contortions. I guess maybe I'm practiced at shooting from weirde positions, LOL. Again, I have no combat experience, but I do know how I best shoot a shotgun and I intend to stick with it. My guns fit ME, that's what counts.

 

[rbernie]

Most folk that shoot squared up find themselves pushing the gun through side-to-side transitions with their arms instead of swinging with their torso. That makes it hard to keep a cheekweld and as a result introduces a lot of 'point' error. At door-kicking 'point and shoot' distances that's probably not such a terrible thing, but it definitely hurts as engagement distances increase.....

 

[Fred Fuller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfH_v9rv3Js

Not the best video in the world, but it explores the differences...


[Not to mention a bloody nose from your thumb hitting you in the face every shot./I]

My grandfather's generation figured out the answer to that one in World War One, courtesy of the 1903 Springfield. You just lay your shooting hand thumb over on the knuckle of your trigger finger, instead of wrapping it around the wrist of the stock.

 

[PoserHoser]

A stock that short will beat you senseless in no time flat.
Not to mention a bloody nose from your thumb hitting you in the face every shot.

rc

The gun has a vertical pistol grip so no need to worry about hitting myself in the nose. The reason for a shorter stock would be better recoil control by placing the stock closer to my chest than my shoulder.

 

[PoserHoser]

Well, it's certainly appropriate for those wearing body armor. On the other hand, I've done a bunch of shooting at fast-moving targets (horizontally launched clays) and a squared up stance doesn't give me any better freedom of movement nor faster broad area target-to-target transitions.

Look up Chris Costa or Travis Haley running a shotgun. Shooting clays is entirely different from defensive shotgun shooting.

 

[rcmodel]

Well do what you want.
But the best clay bird shooters can put the chopped stock square stance SD shooters to shame if they chose to do so.

And while you are watching videos.
Watch Some with Jerry Miculek sometime.
Note the length of his stocks.

His long stocks fit him.
And just about Nobody can beat him.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N5QTFvnENRc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=N5QTFvnENRc

http://miculek.com/shoot-fast-mossberg-930-shotgun/

rc

 

[PoserHoser]

And while you are watching videos.
Watch Some with Jerry Miculek sometime.
Note the length of his stocks.

Competition shooting is different from defensive shooting. A longer stock also has a greater chance of being snagged while shouldering than a short stock.

 

[rcmodel]

Not if it fits you.

But I know see you already know more about shotguns then all of us old timers who are trying to give you some good advice put together.

So, if short is good, shorter should be better? Right?

I'd cut it to 12" if I were you.

rc

 

[PoserHoser]

Not if it fits you.

But I know see you already know more about shotguns then all of us old timers who are trying to give you some good advice put together.

So, if short is good, shorter should be better? Right?

I'd cut it to 12" if I were you.

Do you even read the comments? Notice I said I cut my bolt guns 3/4 of an inch down. I may be a " mighty small adult" but I have shot every major brand of shotgun (remington,winchester,ithaca,benelli,mossberg) and i know what fits me best for different applications. I simply asked for the common length used on pistol grip shoulder stocks. (benelli's are a tad long) You say 12" is the length you'd cut it to. I said 11 and 3/4 inches. See the irony?

 

[Field Tester]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfH_v9rv3Js

Not the best video in the world, but it explores the differences...


[Not to mention a bloody nose from your thumb hitting you in the face every shot./I]

My grandfather's generation figured out the answer to that one in World War One, courtesy of the 1903 Springfield. You just lay your shooting hand thumb over on the knuckle of your trigger finger, instead of wrapping it around the wrist of the stock.

I'm still trying to picture this and I am just not able to. Any pictures or better description?

 

[Inebriated]

When it comes to shooting in a squared up stance, LOP is really more a factor of you reaching the forend. If you can reach and retract the forend comfortably, your LOP is fine. If you're stretching to reach or having to move your off-side shoulder back much to retract it, then you need to change it.

I don't really care what the LOP is as long as I am not thinking "gosh, I need a shorter/longer stock".

A squared up stance requires me to center the recoil onto my collarbone

Bring the gun down to your pec, and bring your head down to the stock. It shouldn't be on your collar bone. Nothing like the traditional way to shoot a shotgun, but it's a defensive shotgun, not a bird gun... For all intents and purposes, you're shooting it like a carbine.

 

[rbernie]

Look up Chris Costa or Travis Haley running a shotgun. Shooting clays is entirely different from defensive shotgun shooting.

Sure it is, when you define "defensive shotgun shooting" to be shooting at static targets within a narrow physical window of engagement (close in and in front). That is a definition that appears to be derived from barricade style shooting, refined by techniques developed by folk who kick down doors in a stack for a living, and instantiated by the shooting game community. If that the definition that you want to use for yourself, well, I'm absolutely ok with that - but I also choose to NOT accept that definition for my own purposes. My definition of defensive shotgun proficiency is to be able to individually engage any target, stationary or moving up to 60mph, within a 50 yards radius and a 180 degree span of control, with a first shot on target from a low ready or carry position and with the target location not visible in advance. Given that more expansive definition, many of the 'barricade' style tenets simply do not work well and a more traditional style of long gun shooting reasserts itself. To restate my feedback in Post #12:

Most folk that shoot squared up find themselves pushing the gun through side-to-side transitions with their arms instead of swinging with their torso. That makes it hard to keep a cheekweld and as a result introduces a lot of 'point' error. At door-kicking 'point and shoot' distances that's probably not such a terrible thing, but it definitely hurts as engagement distances increase.....

If someone wants to consider a shotgun to be a barricade-style defensive weapon only, then adopting the current Conventional Wisdom is probably a good idea and they should completely ignore me.

Bring the gun down to your pec, and bring your head down to the stock. It shouldn't be on your collar bone. Nothing like the traditional way to shoot a shotgun, but it's a defensive shotgun, not a bird gun... For all intents and purposes, you're shooting it like a carbine.

Understood - I've tried this, and (aside from being a slower shooting position for me to get into) my principal complaint has been that it kills my span of vision. I'm quite sure that it works well on a range against static targets or for guys in stacks with assigned slices to clear, but it flatly SUX for me when managing moving targets across 180 degrees or better. Since I don't want to have to adopt multiple long gun shooting styles depending on the gun that I'm holding, I've worked pretty hard to figure out what works best across the spectrum of needs, and groove that into each long gun discipline.

Just my thinking, anyway.

 

[oneounceload]

The reason for a shorter stock would be better recoil control by placing the stock closer to my chest than my shoulder.

Actually, if the gun fit is correct, you want the stock in the pocket between your collar bone and shoulder joint - that helps keep it aligned with your eyes and is the best spot for absorbing the recoil.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm not really comprehending how shooting a human, moving or not, is harder than shooting a flying clay target or something with feathers or a running bunny for that matter. But, whatever. I'm not a trained ninja and I'm old and set in my ways.

I don't really care what the LOP is as long as I am not thinking "gosh, I need a shorter/longer stock".

I do care. A properly fitting stock on a shotgun not only reduces felt recoil, but helps me score better as it points naturally for me and I can concentrate on the target and not so much the gun. It's faster to the shoulder, too, since I don't have to adjust my head to the gun, it just comes to me. Speed might not be so important in combat...right ...but it is important in bird hunting. The gun MUST fit.

Probably why there's so many shotguns for combat shooting with electronic sights or rifle sights on 'em. They don't know how to properly fit and properly shoot a shotgun. They think they're suppose to have some sort of aiming device. For me, a rib helps, but even that is un-necessary on a good fitting shotgun. It'll shoot where I look.

 

[Inebriated]

I can concentrate on the target and not so much the gun

Did you even read what I wrote? I said if I'm not thinking about the gun, I don't care.

I'm old and set in my ways

I couldn't tell...