Proper Shooting Postition for the AR15

[bad_dad_brad]

I just got my AR15, a Bushy 16" A2 a few months ago.

I have been handling it like a plain old rifle. But something was not working quite right, my right shoulder picked up some arthritic pain, and the left arm easily became fatigued. And my accuracy was so so.

Then I get to poking around and searching the TFL database, and look at some pictures of people shooting the AR15 in books and publications, and I realized that I am probably shooting the thing incorrectly.

Every picture I see, the person shooting has their face far forward on the stock (some recommend that the tip of the nose just touches the charging handle), the left supporting hand is wrapped around the magazine well not the handguards, and the right shooting hand's elbow is close to the body instead at nine o'clock.

I have not had the chance yet to test this postition out, but I know many of you High Roaders have had AR15 experience for many years. I would appreciate opinions and answers on this question of the proper shooting position for the AR15.

Thanks.

Brad.

 

[goon]

According to uncle sam, you gotta stick your nose up against the charging handle. It means that you get the same sight picture every time.
You wrap your hand around the handguards just like you would any other rifle. Other than that, there isn't much more I could tell you to try.

 

[bad_dad_brad]

I am only re-posting to bump things up and to try to get this thread noticed. I would like a few more opinions please, as my question is pretty basic.

I am wondering if THR is becoming a political chat and b**** site, instead of a firearms expert site. It seems so to me. I miss the old TFL.

Perhaps I should go to AR15.COM to get this simple question responded to.

Re-posting:

I just got my AR15, a Bushy 16" A2 a few months ago.

I have been handling it like a plain old rifle. But something was not working quite right, my right shoulder picked up some arthritic pain, and the left arm easily became fatigued. And my accuracy was so so.

Then I get to poking around and searching the TFL database, and look at some pictures of people shooting the AR15 in books and publications, and I realized that I am probably shooting the thing incorrectly.

Every picture I see, the person shooting has their face far forward on the stock (some recommend that the tip of the nose just touches the charging handle), the left supporting hand is wrapped around the magazine well not the handguards, and the right shooting hand's elbow is close to the body instead at nine o'clock.

I have not had the chance yet to test this postition out, but I know many of you High Roaders have had AR15 experience for many years. I would appreciate opinions and answers on this question of the proper shooting position for the AR15.

Thanks.

Brad.
_

 

[gun-fucious]

there is a whole FM on AR15 marksmanship...
FM23-9 - M16 Marksmanship Manual
http://www.mcdl.org/Manuals/Manuals/Manual Depot.htm

also see:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/mcrp3-1a/

MCWP 3-01.x complements MCWP 3-01, Basic Marksmanship. MCWP 3-01.x explains the fundamental techniques and procedures for Phase III Marksmanship Training (Field Firing). This manual's discussion of marksmanship skills assumes a strong foundation of individual proficiency in basic marksmanship. This manual is intended to be used by Marine Corps organizations and marksmanship training sites for the training of individual Marines and small units. Procedures in this manual are written for right-handed Marines. Left-handed Marines should reverse instructions as needed.

 

[Sven]

I usually try to wait a day or so before worrying that my thread missed the eyes of those who can help....

-sven, who avoids most of the political chat

 

[Steve Smith]

Nose touching the charging handle...not a necessity, and somewhat difficult when standing, expecially if you're short. It is a very good way to help you have a consistent cheek weld.

Firing arm close to the body...its pretty hard to have the "high elbow" with the AR due to the pistol grip...just have your elbow down at your side, where ever it feels most natural.

Forward hand. Depends on use. With the left hand at the front of the magwell and the right arm tight against the body, you're assuming the "tactical" stance where you use your body to point the rifle more than arms. You may also have your arm extended, of course. One of the ways to hold the AR for best standing accuracy is like this:

Sorry for the size. BTW, that's Sgt First Class Grant Singley

 

[Badger Arms]

While Grant and others will certainly score high marks on the range, I suspect that real work is done with the head further back on the stock. I'm a fairly tall guy and I find it uncomfortable and awkward to fire my rifle as suggested above. I do whatever is comfortable. While it isn't necessarily repeatable, I don't think that my sight picture is compromised by a difference of a few inches. Other factors are more important to me. On my 'tactical' rifle, if you want to call it that, my cheek will litearlly weld to the rifle in winter.

 

[Steve Smith]

Everyone wants to find a point of contention.

 

[Bikeguy]

as for left arm, I like to grab the mag well too - it is more comfortable.

Stock on mine seems a little short for me, and I have been looking for a longer one. No luck yet. That might be part of the problem with the right arm.

I find that the closer my nose is to the charging handle, the more the rear sight "disappears" as it is suppossed to. I keep my nose just rearward of the charging handle.

 

[BigG]

This refers to the STANDARD AR15 A1 or A2, not modified guns.

While I don't want to go against any self-appointed gurus, the nose-against-charging- handle idea sounds pretty asinine to me. If it works, use it but you should have your head upright in a comfortable position. Your eye will tell you when you're the right distance from the rear sight. It should just look like a fuzzy hole anyway with the front sight in the brightest part, the center. After a little live practice you will assume the same cheek position time after time. I have.

Do not put pressure on the sling as that bends the bbl and will string your shots unless you do it exactly the same way each time.

Be mindful that you have to have the weapon level. If you cant the gun you will get pistol errors unless it is canted uniformly each time. This is due to the separate pistol grip. Best idea is to keep the gun straight up and down. Hope this helps!

George

 

[Steve Smith]

Obviously, how you intend to use the rifle has a lot to do with how you hold it. If you're really fighting with it, you need a good firm grasp on the rifle. If you in a CQB stiuation, you want to take up less space and gain more control, so that's where grabbing the magwell comes in.

Nose to the charging handle is, as I said earlier, is not a necessity, and is not easy for many. You will just have to experiment to find what works for you.

 

[bad_dad_brad]

Thanks all for your opinions.

Special thanks to the links to the PDF manuals. Very helpful.

I do like that pic of the fellow picking his nose with the charging handle. Ouch.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

that guru in the photo with his nose on the charging handle just happens to be a national champion, but what would he know about shooting?

here this is going to be my standard answer from now on because I do not want to be considered a self appointed guru.

#1 ON ALL RIFLE POSITIONS IF YOU ARE SHOOTING THE 10 OR X RING OVER 97% OF ALL YOUR SHOTS YOU REALLY SHOULD NOT CARE WHAT YOUR POSITION IS.

#2 IF YOU ARE NOT HOLDING THE 10 OR X IN OVER 97% OF YOUR SHOTS THEN WORK ON YOUR POSITION TILL YOU DO AND IF YOU ARE SEE #1

#3 IF YOU CAN NOT PUT THE RIFLE DOWN AND PICK IT BACK UP NO MATTER WHAT POSITION YOU START IN AND HIT A 10 OR X THEN YOUR POSITION NEEDS LOTS OF WORK ANYWAY AND SEE #2 AND IF YOU CAN SEE #1

copier has been down this past week but got it working today and need to get a copy out for another shooter as promised and if you BAD_DAD_BRAD would like a copy on off hand positions and exactly what to do email me and I will send you a copy.
if you do follow it you may not understand it all at once but you will keep going back to it and pick up more each time. trust me it works.

the above 3 things are exactly what works and any great shooter worth his salt will tell you the same thing.
IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW YOU HOLD IT , IT'S THE RESULTS THAT COUNT.
now for example in my rapid sitting position my head does not even touch the stock but is about 2 inches above the stock on all rapid sitting shots, yes it just floats there. and to say my rapid sitting is kinda ok as my worst score in rapid sitting since early sept. has been a 199-7x out of 200. but having said that it goes to show you if you have a very good repeatible position in any shooting sport it works.

 

[gun-fucious]

ya see B_D_B
thats one of the hidden strong points of the AR15 platform

theres a rather large training user base

want the next step after the FMs?

Some Of The Answer, Urban Carbine
http://www.marksmans.com/
If you own an AR, this is a one stop shop for many of your answers.

Some Of The Answer, Urban Carbine--An Advanced Technique Manual for the Combat Carbine by Jim Crews--is a detailed training manual regarding the operation and application of the AR, Mini 14/30 AK and SKS. It consists of 296 pages (8-1/2†x 11â€) of detailed techniques regarding the use of the tactical carbine in an urban environment. The manual covers safety, proper slinging and mounting techniques, proper loading, unloading, tactical reloading, zeroing, position shooting and much more. This manual is extrordinary in the fact that the manual included both right and left handed techniques. The manual is completely detailed with 680 high quality photos for almost every technique presented in the manual. This manual will become the bench mark for others to follow. This manual supercedes all previous versions of the former carbine manual. This training manual is the best technical training resource the carbine shooter or instructor can obtain.

Available December 1, 2002--Some Of The Answer, Urban Carbine, soft cover is $39.95, 3 ring binder version is $44.95 plus shipping.

 

[BigG]

IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW YOU HOLD IT , IT'S THE RESULTS THAT COUNT.

Now that is an answer I can agree with.

I've seen and heard of people who could do all sorts of wondrous things but they could not impart it to anybody else. There was a great shooter in the early days of the FBI named Jelly Bryce. Jelly was the guy they brought in when they had a desperado that was not going to come in alive. Jelly could point and shoot with a supernatural accuracy. He claimed, and a lot of people believed him, that he could watch the bullets as they traveled to their target. They made him a firearms instructor and guess what, he came up with the FBI Crouch or whatever they call that position but nobody ever learned Jelly's supernatural accuracy with a revolver.

You can also read FAST AND FANCY REVOLVER SHOOTING by Ed McGivern who gave detailed instruction of how to hit the individual spots on playing cards with a .38 revolver, either hand, at speeds that would tax Miculek.

When you read thru all the detailed scenarios and training regimens that McGivern put himself thru it staggers the mind, especially when you consider that he shot some 200,000 rounds (IIRC) of factory 38 Special to attain his awesome skills. That would run into quite a few thousand dollars of investment into ammo alone. $30-40,000 at current prices is my guesstimate.

And that is only in shooting, now when you get into the other areas of human endeavor there is equally astounding individual achievements. I remember in Paris there was a lady who...

 

[BigG]

This is a picture of Jelly Bryce, the most deadly shooter in the FBI who is almost unknown. Notice the crouch which the FBI adopted as it was Bryce's natural position. Notice he is point shooting, not looking down the bbl. He claimed he could watch the bullets as they streaked toward their targets. He is known for entering a hotel room in OK city where a desperado already had him covered with a revo. Bryce nonetheless drew from under his suitcoat and fired either five or six shots all of which struck the desperado in the head. His weapon remained unfired and he was dead before his pistol hit the bed.

According to what people have told me, Bryce was unable to impart his natural shooting style to anyone else even though he was made a firearms instructor.

 

[Betty]

Here's what works for me:

photo by Oleg Volk

 

[M1911]

I'm a stock crawler. On the AR15, I put my nose on the charging handle. YMMV.

 

[Victor Romen]

From the hip of course.

 

[BigG]

The basic idea behind shooting any long arm is you bring the gun to your face, not your face to the gun. Shooters who worry about a "good cheek weld" should be learning a "good sight picture" and then the repeatable cheek weld would come naturally, imho. Just my two pfennig.

 

[Brian Williams]

When I was in the Marines and qualifing Expert with a 245 out of 250 on the KD500 range, if I put my nose to the charging handle I would get the A1 carry handle scar just above my right eye. I worked on a cheek weld with a piece of black electrical tape folded and stuck on the stock right back of a nose touch cheek weld worked for me. I also padded the inside of my shooting jacket cause the stock was to short for me.

 

[Steve Smith]

Obviously this thread has taken a turn. Now, considering cheek weld, there are lots of ways to get a consistent one. The nose thing is olny one way. Another way, as stated above, is to use tape that you can feel with your cheek. There are many other ways, but I'm off to a job site.

 

[Onslaught]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this specifically... but if you hold the magwell instead of the forend, and you're not pulling on the sling, you're effectively "free floating" the barrel. If you're dealing with the "military profile" barrels, this is probably more of an issue than with the HBARs.

Keeing the elbows in close to the body is to make you less of a target and keep you from exposing an elbow as you corner in CQB and giving away your position (as well as your ability to play the piano )

I don't touch my nose to the CH, but I'm not a great shot either...

 

[Biff]

The nose on the charging handle technique is meant to ensure that your face's position an the stock (and eye's relationship to the rear sight) remains consistent from shot to shot. If you are uncomfortable with your nose on the charging handle, you do have alternatives! Find your most comfortable position, and place a piece of moleskin or a corn pad on the stock where your cheek contacts it. Thereafter, when you aim your rifle, simply make sure that you can feel the piece of moleskin on your cheek. Your eye/sight alignment will stay the same.

 

[bad_dad_brad]

Wow.

I can see that it is practice, practice, practice that is the key. And consistancy once you find your groove. Comfort I am sure is part of the equation.

It reminds me once of a great young baseball hitter. He had a coach that decided that his swing was not proper, and the kid's average went down 100 points.

I think Runt of the Litter's picture points out, that the AR is a great ergonomic rifle designed to fit the person and not vice versa. She is a tiny gal, but the system fits her well, and I am sure that she hits the target.

Range time!