Proving a rifle fired out of battery?

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Atla

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I had a 'unnamed' steel ammo case rupture and blow out the magazine of my SA58 FAL.

Said unnamed steel ammo manufacturer, upon receiving pictures and the casing, wanted to know if headspace was good or if the rifle fired out of battery. Headspace has been checked and is good.

Is it possible to prove or disprove a rifle fired out of battery without a repeat?

Being the tenth round in a brand new rifle, I don't have 'history' to say it never has before. Since then, I've emailed DS Arms about any possible damage and checked what they thought worth of checking. I've fired another 50 rounds through since then, no problems.

Any thoughts?
 
Yes, it is possible for some semi-auto rifles to fire out of battery. I was doing a consulting job for Lake City Army Ammunition Plant a few years ago on M855 ammo. During the course of that, the Army rejected a very large lot of ammo because of a case head failure. Since I was the so-called outside expert, they asked me to look into it while I was there.

I was shown a picture of the failed cartridge, and had not seen anything like it. I had to sleep on it overnight before I realized what had happened.

The last quarter inch of the case had failed catastrophically. What I realized the next morning was that the rear part of the case was expanded to larger diameter than the chamber. That is impossible if the cartridge is fully chambered.

The failed cartridge was fired from an M16, which, of course, has a floating firing pin. Probably a small piece of grit had lodged in the mechanism, momentarily locking the pin forward.

So I wrote a quick report pointing out that it was obviously a firearm malfunction, not a cartridge malfunction. LCAAP was then able to move several trucks loaded with that lot of ammo.

Later, I called Rocky Raab who is a former gun writer, and who served in Viet Nam. I started to describe the event, and he didn't even let me finish. He was laughing pretty hard, and immediately knew what had happened.
out%20of%20battery_zpscdbtixhj.jpg

cartridge%20failure%20project%20lake%20city%20army%20ammunition%20plant_zpsob9bymq4.png
 
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Atla asked:
Is it possible to prove or disprove a rifle fired out of battery without a repeat?

Yes, it should be.

Looking at where the cartridge case failed, it should be possible to tell how much of it was in the chamber and whether or not the bolt was locked. But this kind of analysis may require someone very experienced with the rifle or a consulting forensic engineer.

What have the ammunition manufacturer and the gun manufacturer/distributor said about the failure or are they both blaming each other and you?
 
denton wrote:
The last quarter inch of the case had failed catastrophically. What I realized the next morning was that the rear part of the case was expanded to larger diameter than the chamber. That is impossible if the cartridge is fully chambered.

Well reasoned. You clearly earned the title "expert" on that assignment.
 
Headspace or unlocked firing?

There will be marks, if it fired unlocked, Steel skidding on steel.

Get it headspaced, being "New" this could actually be a factor.
 
Neither the FAL or the AR can fire out of battery. The bolts of both rifles lock in place before the carriers finish returning to battery. In the case of the FAL, the hammer cannot contact the firing pin before the bolt is locked in place. In the case of the AR, the firing pinn cannot contact the primer until after the bolt is locked in place.

There are rifle designs that do not fully support the case head when the round is chambered and the bolt locked in battery
 
Head space was checked with a go/no go gauge and passed.

Here are some pictures

 
Head space was checked with a go/no go gauge and passed.

Here are some pictures

What I'm getting from the picture is that most of the case stuck in the chamber, and the part of the case back of the extractor groove blew off.

If you flipped the rear part of the case back into position, would the bolt close? If not, the gun probably fired out of battery (assuming it also has a floating firing pin). If so, then I'd say simple case head failure from an improperly formed case.

Rifle barrels, brass cases, and hot dogs split lengthwise from uniform excess internal pressure. That's because the stress in a cylinder is much higher around the circumference than it is along the axis. When you see a failure like this one, not lengthwise, a flaw in the case metal springs to mind.

From the picture, it almost looks like the case was made from two pieces, joined. I've never seen such a thing, but it does look that way from the picture.
 
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Brass cases only split lengthwise if they are brittle because the body is supported by the stronger steel of the chamber
 
Brass cases only split lengthwise if they are brittle because the body is supported by the stronger steel of the chamber
Trying to understand what you are saying here.

A cylindrical vessel that is simply pressurized beyond its capacity will always split lengthwise. That is because the stress around the circumference is larger than the stress along the axis.
 
A cylindrical vessel that is simply pressurized beyond its capacity will always split lengthwise. That is because the stress around the circumference is larger than the stress along the axis

I think that MistWolf's point is that when the pressure builds inside a cartridge case that's inside a barrel chamber, it's not the same as an unsupported thin wall cylinder because the amount of expansion is limited by the chamber walls. Axial stress is typically 50% of the hoop stress so an unsupported cylinder will always fail due to hoop stress. However, if the hoop stress is limited by a supporting surface such as a chamber, then it's possible that a cylinder could fail due to axial stress which would result in a fracture that is perpendicular to the long axis of the cartridge rather than parallel. That's what I got out of his comment.
 
These are pictures of out of battery slamfires that occurred in Garands. Out of battery pictures are extremely rare, and these rounds look different from the two out of battery slamfires, in Garands, that I had. In each incident, the case burst below the shoulder. I sent those cases to the gunsmiths who had barreled my match Garands and that was before cheap digital cameras.







My cases looked like short cylinders, the cases ruptured below the shoulders and what was left, looked like someone had wet jet cut the cases. Very clean and even cut. These cases look differently and it is apparent due to the case swelling, that they were not fully seated in the chamber when primer ignition occurred.


Slamfires are primarily due to overly sensitive primers. You will run into a group of people I call "Davidians", mostly on Culver's and M14 forums, who believe that only high primers and a worn out "safety bridge" cause slamfires. They were taught this by the US Army, and civilian consultants who also wrote articles for the American Rifleman. The last big article on this, in the American Rifleman, was written by the Prime Davidian. Essentially he claimed the Garand mechanism was perfect, it positively blocked any incidental contact between firing pin and primer, and that the only causes of slamfires were worn out receiver bridges and high primers. The last two causes are shooter misconduct, you allowed your gun to be worn out and you did not seat your primers to depth. What I find interesting about the Prime Davidian is that he was the Government technical expert at the Ichord hearing, he worked on the M16 slamfire investigation, may have lead it. And he determined the primer sensitivity requirements for the M16, to prevent more slamfires. The early M16 used sensitive commercial primers and had a very heavy firing pin. The firing pin was lightened, and the military primer, the #41, was made less sensitive.




Yet, when the M1 Garand and M1a ruled the firing line in NRA sponsored high power matches, when writing an article about the slamfires and the Garand mechanism, in the NRA magazine, American Rifleman, the Prime Davidian never once mentions primer sensitivity. There is no such thing as primer sensitivity, a primer is a primer, is a primer. A reader is left with the assumption that primers are very consistent, only ignite when desired, and that they are all similar, if not identical. Davidians, as a general rule, don't believe that primers vary in sensitivity, and they absolutely don't believe that incidental contact between a firing pin and primer can cause the primer to ignite, either before trigger pull, or before the action is in battery. They have been taught, and they will always believe, that slamfires are only due to shooter negligence. Davidians tend to be judgmental types, positively Puritanical in their viewpoint: that is, evil happens to evil doers. This was an early doctrine of Calvinists in general, that is God protected the select from harm , but you could identify the damned by the misfortune in their lives. Who wants to show, or discuss his slamfire when you know this nasty, irrational type of person will be commenting in the thread?

In any mechanism with a free floating firing pin, there exists the potential of primer ignition due to incidental contact between the firing pin and the primer. It all depends on primer sensitivity, and primers that are more sensitive on average, are more likely to have a firing pin initiated slamfire. Pistol mechanisms do not have the ignition power of rifle mechanisms, so pistol primers tend to be more sensitive than rifle primers. If you notice, very few modern pistol mechanisms have free floating firing pins, starting I think, with the P38 (or maybe earlier, don't know) pistols began having firing pin blocks. These firing pin blocks not only prevent accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped, it prevents in battery slamfires as rounds are chambered.

I am unaware of any semi auto rifle actions that have firing pin blocks. Rifles control slamfires through other techniques, and through primer sensitivity. Military rifles have robust ignition systems, tend to have heavy firing pins, so you will find that military rifle primers are less sensitive than commercial primers sold to American reloaders. One design technique is used by the FAL to reduce slamfires is a spring loaded firing pin. The spring reduces the energy of the firing pin as it rebounds within the bolt. Also, the FAL action was designed so that the firing pin is out of alignment of the primer prior to bolt battery. The bolt face is off axis from the center line of the cartridge, before the rear of the bolt is in battery.



Here the bolt is lined up, as it would be in battery, and the free floating firing pin is perfectly able to rebound off the primer.



I have found a number of accounts of in battery slamfires in FALs, but not an out of battery slamfire incident. However, the previous design, the FN 49, has a number of out of battery accounts on the web:

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=367888

I had a slam-fire once, in an 8x57 Egyptian FN-49. I was slightly injured by small brass particles that cut my forehead, and my glasses were scratched. The rifle was damaged, wood blown out of the bottom around the magazine well. I was using some relatively anemic factory loaded 8mm Mauser hunting ammo someone had given me to use up. The rifle "doubled" the second shot which was a slam fire nearly immediately following the first shot. And apparently the bolt lugs had not fully locked, the rifle firing out of lock and the case rupturing. Previously I had used only Milsurp full-power ammo. FN-49's are known to have firing pin problems, breakage which can leave the forward part of the firing pin extending through the bolt. I had no parts breakage, and the firing pin seemed to retract OK. I can only assume the slam fire had something to do with the soft factory primers, but I'll never know for sure. I felt very fortunate to not have been hurt worse. I don't want to repeat the problem, so I am very careful about high primers, and use only CCI-34's in my reloads for semi-auto rifles (Garand, M1A) which I shoot often in local matches. I don't know how an AK would handle an out-of-battery slam fire any better than anything else.

Out of Battery Slamfire in FN49
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=543905
Hey all,
I recently had an 'out of battery slamfire' in my, two piece firing pin, FN49. I had made 8mm Mauser ammo from milsurp 30-06 cases. The dimensions of the cases (30-06 and 7.92x57mm S) are identical at the base and only need to be cut down to the correct length, sized and trimmed. The problem with making your own ammo for the FN49 is that it is a very robust firing mechanism that will ignite a sensitive primer before the round is seated in the chamber. I was using CCI 200 Large Rifle Primers which are reasonably sensitive for bolt action rifles and, I have found out, too sensitive for semi auto rifles. Even though I've used these primers for years in my FALs, and WASR AK47, I'm going to stop and use CCI 34 Large, 41 Small, or milsurp in the semi auto rifles.


The 'oob' slamfire caused the receiver and bolt carrier to become a bad fit! I searched (Google) and found a gunsmith in Missouri who could fix the rifle. His name is Guy Snelen at AMG International in Humansville, Missouri. He repaired it, test fired it, and sent it home to me. If anyone needs a good gunsmith, get in touch with Guy.

Kaboomed 8mm Egyptian FN-49 .... Now A Floorlamp!!!!

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=132165.0

My LGS gave me this Kaboomed Egyptian FN-49 today. It's a CAI gun. To add insult to injury it was the second time it had kaboomed. The owner had it "fixed" and then it let loose again after a few rounds. I think I would have quit the first go-round.
C:\Users\brian\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif


The funny thing is when I took it apart I could not find any reason it let go unless it fired out of battery. The gas setting was fine. The only broken part was the rear of the extractor when the kaboom bent it out and cracked it.

When it let go (8mm Romanian surplus) it looks like all the force went straight down and bulged the mag and in turn stretched the sides of the mag well in the trigger group/guard assembly. I got the mag pounded back in shape and bent in the sides of the mag well opening true.

One thing I did notice was that the stock was repaired poorly after it let loose the first time. It would not have taken but a few rounds to have split it again. It is one of those beech CAI replacement stocks and it split darn near perfectly in half.

I could fix the stock but why bother, I'd never-ever trust the rifle. The guy got away twice with nothing but hurt feel-goods and a lighter wallet and I don't want to be the odd man out with a injury.

I was thinking of parting it out or selling it as is but I think I might make a gun lamp out of it instead to preclude anyone getting bad parts or crazy ideas of trying to shoot it.

I glued/screwed the stock back together well enough to start making a lamp of it. It will be real easy to do.

Before:
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C:\Users\brian\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.jpg


C:\Users\brian\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.jpg


After:

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Re: Kaboomed 8mm Egyptian FN-49

« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2014, 11:06:04 PM »

Quote from: running-man on July 03, 2014, 09:15:19 PM

Scary stuff. Might be that it's got a one piece firing pin instead of a two? The one piece pins had slam fire issues and maybe that caused an out of battery condition? I'm interested to see how the lamp turns out!

It had the two piece firing pin and it was free and clear.

Argentine 49 7.62x51 KABOOM!
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=106950

I was at the range with visiting CALFED. One of the rifles I drug out was an Argentine FN-49 NAVY conversion to 7.62x51mm.

I have fired this rifle many times shooting all sorts of surplus and commercial ammunition. The rifle was in very good or better condition. Port pressure ring set for normal operation.

I brought in a few boxes of Winchester White Label 147 grain military NATO ball ammunition to try out.

CALFED is a well trained shooter with very good trigger and sight control. He loaded up five rounds in the 20 round magazine and fired his first shot at 100 yards from the bench. I was over his shoulder spotting for him. His first round was on target at 7 o'clock just outside of the black.

He lined up the second shot and pulled the trigger. There was a loud bang and shrapnel flew all over the bench. He has struck in the left forehead. I caught most of the blast in my face. A chunk of shell casing embedded itself in my left cheek just under my eye. Both of us were using shooting glasses so no damage was done to our eyes. The second bullet struck the target a little higher.

The magazine was blown apart. Live rounds were scattered onto the shooting bench. The bolt and carrier were back and locked. The "fired" casing was unlike any I have ever seen in my life. And Ive been shooting for over 50 years.

The rim was blown off right at the beginning of the web of the casing. The body of the shell was missing about 1/2 of an inch, which we never found. The forward remainder of the shell had IMPLODED into its self! No one there or anyone who I have talked to since has ever seen anything like this. I have no reason what so ever for the failure of the cartridge. This rifle has a very strong firing pin spring which keeps it from moving forward as the round is chambered. I'm not sure just what went wrong. CALFED has a very gentle pull. Perhaps the rifle tried to bump fire? Bad Ammo?
Thank God no one was seriously injured.

These slamfires occurred in spite of anti slamfire feature that the designer patented:

Tilt Locking Breechblock for Automatic Firearms D. J. Saive July 18, 1950, 2,515,315

The spring 32 also forms a safety device (Figure 14) for preventing firing when the breech block is unlocked. As shown in 'Figure' 14, the firing pin 31 has a groove 31a in it and the spring 32 has a lug 32a on it which acts as a safety and, by engaging in the groove 31a, holds the firing pin against forward movement when the breech block is unlocked . When the breech block is not locked (Figrue 8) the rear end of the slide projects beyond the rear end of the firing pin thus preventing the striker from striking said firing pin.

I don't have an FN 49 bolt to examine, but Mr.Saive must have changed the bolt design from the FN 49 and the FAL.

There are other causes of slamfires, mechanical ones. If the hammer follows the bolt down, pressing the firing pin foward, than a slamfire will happen. If had this happen in my first FAL, it was due to a worn out sear/trigger and the thing would double. Thankfully it slamfired in battery.

My Fal probably would not have slam fired if the BATF had not required the safety sear to be taken out of the mechanism. The safety sear is used in automatic fire, and most stupidly, the BATF required it to be taken out. But that safety sear slows hammer reset, and the hammer is less likely to over ride the trigger sear when the safety sear is installed.



One of the rarest types of slamfires is the one of the corner stones of Davidianism: the high primer. Yes a high primer can ignite but a couple of conditions have to be met. The first is that the primer anvil is firmly seated on something. If the anvil is dangling in the air, the most common effect of a high primer is then a misfire. You will read about these all the time and the best advice given to reloaders whose ammunition is misfiring on first strike, but going off on the second, is to seat the primers deeper. The first hammer strike typically seats the primer, the second sets it off.

However, if the cartridge has a shallow pocket, it is possible that a high primer could ignite just through contact with the bolt face. Or, if someone is sticking spacers under their primers, firmly seating the primer anvil on that spacer, but leaving a high primer, than that primer could go off through bolt face contact. This is how Wayne Faatz got his primers to ignite. You can read Wayne Faatz’s article “The Mysterious Slamfire”. https://www.scribd.com/document/2649554/The-Mysterious-Slamfire The guy had a slamfire, assumed it was something he did, because the only causes were all “user” causes: there was no acknowledgement at the time that Garands/M14’s, M1 carbines are susceptible to slamfires and there was no acknowledgement that primer sensitivity varied between brands. His article was published in Davidianism central; The American Rifleman magazine. The American Rifleman actively promoted the idea that slamfires were all due to shooter negligence and this article is an example of their agnotology . If you notice, Wayne Faatz could not get his high primers to slamfire. Even with high pistol primers, none of his high primers would go bang, that is, until, he inserted flattened pistol anvils under the primers. Then he had the condition of a firmly seated primer anvil and was able to get the primer to ignite by dropping the bolt.

In battery slamfires occurr frequently in AR15's, even though the firing pin has been lightened, most civilian ammunition is loaded with sensitive commercial primers. And many reloaders use the most sensitive primers they can find in their AR15's, so called match or benchrest primers, which tend to have thinner cups than military primers. This is the first thread I have ever seen a a documented example of an out of battery slamfire, and I would like to ask the permission of Denton to use his picture, with reference to his post, of an example of an out of battery slamfire in an AR15 mechanism.

Stoner did a good job in designing in features in his AR15 mechanism which reduce the risk of an out of battery slamfire. The firing pin is positively retracted until cam down. The early M16 slamfire accounts we have are all in battery slamfires. I have one shooting bud, who works as a security guard for a Government facility. He and the other security guards were undergoing training, with Government M4 carbines, using Federal Gold Medal match 223. Bud told me that one of the military M4's slamfired out of battery. Bud has seen decades of slamfires with Garands, M1a's, so he ought to know what an out of battery slamfire looks like, but, proving something like that to a Davidian, based on hearsay, well, it is not going to happen.

I don't understand how a AR15 mechanism can slamfire out of battery unless the primer is so sensitive that it just goes off, due to inertia. Or if there was something on the bolt face.

From the pictures I see, that the OP posted, that looks more like an over pressure event than a slamfire. The case head has blown out. The case head has blown out through the thickest portion of the cartridge case. I have seen similar pictures and I think something was wrong with the ammunition, not the gun.
 
I think that MistWolf's point is that when the pressure builds inside a cartridge case that's inside a barrel chamber, it's not the same as an unsupported thin wall cylinder because the amount of expansion is limited by the chamber walls. Axial stress is typically 50% of the hoop stress so an unsupported cylinder will always fail due to hoop stress. However, if the hoop stress is limited by a supporting surface such as a chamber, then it's possible that a cylinder could fail due to axial stress which would result in a fracture that is perpendicular to the long axis of the cartridge rather than parallel. That's what I got out of his comment.
Thank you. That sounds right.
 
These are pictures of out of battery slamfires that occurred in Garands. Out of battery pictures are extremely rare, and these rounds look different from the two out of battery slamfires, in Garands, that I had. In each incident, the case burst below the shoulder. I sent those cases to the gunsmiths who had barreled my match Garands and that was before cheap digital cameras.







My cases looked like short cylinders, the cases ruptured below the shoulders and what was left, looked like someone had wet jet cut the cases. Very clean and even cut. These cases look differently and it is apparent due to the case swelling, that they were not fully seated in the chamber when primer ignition occurred.


Slamfires are primarily due to overly sensitive primers. You will run into a group of people I call "Davidians", mostly on Culver's and M14 forums, who believe that only high primers and a worn out "safety bridge" cause slamfires. They were taught this by the US Army, and civilian consultants who also wrote articles for the American Rifleman. The last big article on this, in the American Rifleman, was written by the Prime Davidian. Essentially he claimed the Garand mechanism was perfect, it positively blocked any incidental contact between firing pin and primer, and that the only causes of slamfires were worn out receiver bridges and high primers. The last two causes are shooter misconduct, you allowed your gun to be worn out and you did not seat your primers to depth. What I find interesting about the Prime Davidian is that he was the Government technical expert at the Ichord hearing, he worked on the M16 slamfire investigation, may have lead it. And he determined the primer sensitivity requirements for the M16, to prevent more slamfires. The early M16 used sensitive commercial primers and had a very heavy firing pin. The firing pin was lightened, and the military primer, the #41, was made less sensitive.




Yet, when the M1 Garand and M1a ruled the firing line in NRA sponsored high power matches, when writing an article about the slamfires and the Garand mechanism, in the NRA magazine, American Rifleman, the Prime Davidian never once mentions primer sensitivity. There is no such thing as primer sensitivity, a primer is a primer, is a primer. A reader is left with the assumption that primers are very consistent, only ignite when desired, and that they are all similar, if not identical. Davidians, as a general rule, don't believe that primers vary in sensitivity, and they absolutely don't believe that incidental contact between a firing pin and primer can cause the primer to ignite, either before trigger pull, or before the action is in battery. They have been taught, and they will always believe, that slamfires are only due to shooter negligence. Davidians tend to be judgmental types, positively Puritanical in their viewpoint: that is, evil happens to evil doers. This was an early doctrine of Calvinists in general, that is God protected the select from harm , but you could identify the damned by the misfortune in their lives. Who wants to show, or discuss his slamfire when you know this nasty, irrational type of person will be commenting in the thread?

In any mechanism with a free floating firing pin, there exists the potential of primer ignition due to incidental contact between the firing pin and the primer. It all depends on primer sensitivity, and primers that are more sensitive on average, are more likely to have a firing pin initiated slamfire. Pistol mechanisms do not have the ignition power of rifle mechanisms, so pistol primers tend to be more sensitive than rifle primers. If you notice, very few modern pistol mechanisms have free floating firing pins, starting I think, with the P38 (or maybe earlier, don't know) pistols began having firing pin blocks. These firing pin blocks not only prevent accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped, it prevents in battery slamfires as rounds are chambered.

I am unaware of any semi auto rifle actions that have firing pin blocks. Rifles control slamfires through other techniques, and through primer sensitivity. Military rifles have robust ignition systems, tend to have heavy firing pins, so you will find that military rifle primers are less sensitive than commercial primers sold to American reloaders. One design technique is used by the FAL to reduce slamfires is a spring loaded firing pin. The spring reduces the energy of the firing pin as it rebounds within the bolt. Also, the FAL action was designed so that the firing pin is out of alignment of the primer prior to bolt battery. The bolt face is off axis from the center line of the cartridge, before the rear of the bolt is in battery.



Here the bolt is lined up, as it would be in battery, and the free floating firing pin is perfectly able to rebound off the primer.



I have found a number of accounts of in battery slamfires in FALs, but not an out of battery slamfire incident. However, the previous design, the FN 49, has a number of out of battery accounts on the web:

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=367888



Out of Battery Slamfire in FN49
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=543905


Kaboomed 8mm Egyptian FN-49 .... Now A Floorlamp!!!!

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=132165.0



Argentine 49 7.62x51 KABOOM!
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=106950



These slamfires occurred in spite of anti slamfire feature that the designer patented:

Tilt Locking Breechblock for Automatic Firearms D. J. Saive July 18, 1950, 2,515,315

The spring 32 also forms a safety device (Figure 14) for preventing firing when the breech block is unlocked. As shown in 'Figure' 14, the firing pin 31 has a groove 31a in it and the spring 32 has a lug 32a on it which acts as a safety and, by engaging in the groove 31a, holds the firing pin against forward movement when the breech block is unlocked . When the breech block is not locked (Figrue 8) the rear end of the slide projects beyond the rear end of the firing pin thus preventing the striker from striking said firing pin.

I don't have an FN 49 bolt to examine, but Mr.Saive must have changed the bolt design from the FN 49 and the FAL.

There are other causes of slamfires, mechanical ones. If the hammer follows the bolt down, pressing the firing pin foward, than a slamfire will happen. If had this happen in my first FAL, it was due to a worn out sear/trigger and the thing would double. Thankfully it slamfired in battery.

My Fal probably would not have slam fired if the BATF had not required the safety sear to be taken out of the mechanism. The safety sear is used in automatic fire, and most stupidly, the BATF required it to be taken out. But that safety sear slows hammer reset, and the hammer is less likely to over ride the trigger sear when the safety sear is installed.



One of the rarest types of slamfires is the one of the corner stones of Davidianism: the high primer. Yes a high primer can ignite but a couple of conditions have to be met. The first is that the primer anvil is firmly seated on something. If the anvil is dangling in the air, the most common effect of a high primer is then a misfire. You will read about these all the time and the best advice given to reloaders whose ammunition is misfiring on first strike, but going off on the second, is to seat the primers deeper. The first hammer strike typically seats the primer, the second sets it off.

However, if the cartridge has a shallow pocket, it is possible that a high primer could ignite just through contact with the bolt face. Or, if someone is sticking spacers under their primers, firmly seating the primer anvil on that spacer, but leaving a high primer, than that primer could go off through bolt face contact. This is how Wayne Faatz got his primers to ignite. You can read Wayne Faatz’s article “The Mysterious Slamfire”. https://www.scribd.com/document/2649554/The-Mysterious-Slamfire The guy had a slamfire, assumed it was something he did, because the only causes were all “user” causes: there was no acknowledgement at the time that Garands/M14’s, M1 carbines are susceptible to slamfires and there was no acknowledgement that primer sensitivity varied between brands. His article was published in Davidianism central; The American Rifleman magazine. The American Rifleman actively promoted the idea that slamfires were all due to shooter negligence and this article is an example of their agnotology . If you notice, Wayne Faatz could not get his high primers to slamfire. Even with high pistol primers, none of his high primers would go bang, that is, until, he inserted flattened pistol anvils under the primers. Then he had the condition of a firmly seated primer anvil and was able to get the primer to ignite by dropping the bolt.

In battery slamfires occurr frequently in AR15's, even though the firing pin has been lightened, most civilian ammunition is loaded with sensitive commercial primers. And many reloaders use the most sensitive primers they can find in their AR15's, so called match or benchrest primers, which tend to have thinner cups than military primers. This is the first thread I have ever seen a a documented example of an out of battery slamfire, and I would like to ask the permission of Denton to use his picture, with reference to his post, of an example of an out of battery slamfire in an AR15 mechanism.

Stoner did a good job in designing in features in his AR15 mechanism which reduce the risk of an out of battery slamfire. The firing pin is positively retracted until cam down. The early M16 slamfire accounts we have are all in battery slamfires. I have one shooting bud, who works as a security guard for a Government facility. He and the other security guards were undergoing training, with Government M4 carbines, using Federal Gold Medal match 223. Bud told me that one of the military M4's slamfired out of battery. Bud has seen decades of slamfires with Garands, M1a's, so he ought to know what an out of battery slamfire looks like, but, proving something like that to a Davidian, based on hearsay, well, it is not going to happen.

I don't understand how a AR15 mechanism can slamfire out of battery unless the primer is so sensitive that it just goes off, due to inertia. Or if there was something on the bolt face.

From the pictures I see, that the OP posted, that looks more like an over pressure event than a slamfire. The case head has blown out. The case head has blown out through the thickest portion of the cartridge case. I have seen similar pictures and I think something was wrong with the ammunition, not the gun.
The picture isn't actually mine, but it was created with taxpayer money, so I think it is public domain. The ammunition in question was Lake City production 5.56. I don't recall at the moment whether it was M193 or M855.

Your pictures indicate an exciting event. Ouch!
 
The picture isn't actually mine, but it was created with taxpayer money, so I think it is public domain. The ammunition in question was Lake City production 5.56. I don't recall at the moment whether it was M193 or M855.

Your pictures indicate an exciting event. Ouch!

Well, if it does not have a copyright, then I will simply steal it!!!!

I appreciate your posting your experience, I have been studying slamfires for a number of decades, finally came to the conclusion, after two out of battery slamfires in Garands, both with Federal primers, that there was something wrong with "Davidianism".

If you are a Government Consultant, you know how little the Government wants to talk, or acknowledge anything that might be construed a failure. I am certain there are lots of out of battery events on military ranges, but not one word will ever appear in public, because they don't want to admit that any thing bad happens, or that their small arms, or ammunition, has issues.
 
Slamfire, I think your post would be more informative if you left off the name calling (Davidian, Puritan) and insulting tone

I must be running with a different crowd, because I've known since I was a wee bairn that primer sensitivity is important to safe reloading. I learned at my father's knee at the reloading bench that sensitive primers were not to be used in Garands, M1 Cabines, M14s or ARs.

I don't see how an AR can fire out of battery. As I said in my earlier post, the firing pin cannot reach the primer until after the bolt has turned into battery. A slamfire on a sensitive primer, absolutely I can see that. But that will occur after the bolt is locked. Personally, I think some AR barrels have short chambers and after the barrel extension is installed, there is a greater part of the case left unsupported. I think that's part of the problem leading to kabooms and case failures in the AR. That's just a theory, however.

The problem with out of battery firing with the Garand (and I think the M14) has not only to do with a worn safety bridge, but also a bridge that was made out of spec or modified until it was out of spec. If I recall, there was a run of commercial Garand or M14 receivers that had this problem
 
The government does one thing well... Fail.

That's an excellent write up Slamefire, and I agree with your assessment as to the faulty ammunition. Although, it's difficult for me to tell if it was an overpressure event or case failure. I don't have experience with steel cases.
 
You see separation of the case head, but not expansion of the case head. Kind of looks like a case failure. No sign of severe pressure on the face of what was the case head.
 
I must be running with a different crowd, because I've known since I was a wee bairn that primer sensitivity is important to safe reloading. I learned at my father's knee at the reloading bench that sensitive primers were not to be used in Garands, M1 Cabines, M14s or ARs.

Lucky you, I never heard from the Highpower community that primer sensitivity was important or even existed. I had to figure it out all by myself, while being lectured by "experts" that the only causes of slamfires were high primers and your "worn out receiver" bridge. That is, if you had a slamfire it was because of recklessness and stupidity.

The problem with out of battery firing with the Garand (and I think the M14) has not only to do with a worn safety bridge, but also a bridge that was made out of spec or modified until it was out of spec. If I recall, there was a run of commercial Garand or M14 receivers that had this problem

Having researched this back to the literature of WW2, I am of the opinion that the so called "safety bridge" is an invention of the 1960's. At that time sufficient numbers of Garands were in the hands of civilians who were rolling their own cartridges and out of battery slamfires happened. Military spec primers did not exist on the marketplace until 1999 when CCI decided to introduce them to the market place. I called CCI, the gentleman I talked to said the Clinton primer scare induced them to introduce their mil spec primer line to the public, and, amazingly, they sold well and are still available to us civilians. But I challenge anyone to research what was in the public domain in the early 1960's and find anything about mil spec primers.

Something else was going on in the late 1950's and that was Springfield Armory was in the fight of its life not merely for their M14 design, but its own existence. A fight that the M14 lost first, and then, in 1968, Springfield Armory was closed. Early in the 1960's an article was published in the American Rifleman, written with technical assistance and drawings from Springfield Armory, about the bolt function of the M1 Garand. The pre amble of the article clues me to believe that it was in response out of battery slamfires, and the safety of the Garand mechanism. The article is informative, and the earliest document I have found where the receiver bridge is being described as a firing pin block. Now, in WW2 training films, and in John Garands patents, the receiver bridge is a firing pin retraction cam. That is, it pulls the firing pin back so the firing pin does not break, when the bolt opens. But by the time you get to 1960, it is being described as having the function of a firing pin block. I believe this was to hide the fact that the Garand mechanism has a serious safety issue: the mechanism is solely dependent on primer sensitivity to prevent in battery, and out of battery slamfires.

Out of the millions of users of this mechanism, I have not found one who ever turned the mechanism over and analyzed the efficacious of the so called safety bridge.

Because it is easier to see the function of the retraction cam, and as it is functionally similiar, I am going to use M1 carbine pictures.

This is the bolt on an M1 carbine fully retracted, either as in loading, or as in cycling after ejection of a fired round.



Here the firing pin has just contacted the so called safety bridge as the bolt is moving forward, and is just starting to cam down.



Here the lugs are in battery and the firing pin can move forward without interference from the receiver bridge.



This is the position of the free floating firing pin, if hit here by the hammer, the primer will ignite.



The firing pins in these mechanism bounce around, after all the law of conservation of momentum still applies. The bolt will stop, but the firing pin has the energy of forward movement and it will bounce forward with the speed of the bolt at its highest velocity. The rebound energy of the firing pin is enough to dimple primers. In battery slamfires occur at cam down, sometimes the lugs are not in full engagement, and this is because the firing pin can touch the primer.





Now this is a question about the effectiveness of the receiver bridge as a firing pin block. Between the red lines, which represent the back and forth travel of the firing pin tang, just what is holding that free floating firing pin. Just what is preventing that free floating firing pin from contacting the primer?



It should be obvious that nothing is holding that free floating firing pin back, that nothing mechanical is blocking that firing pin, that nothing at all is preventing that firing pin from rebounding off a primer, as the bolt moves forward, before the lugs are in engagement.

Seems to me, to call the firing pin retraction cam a "safety bridge" is rather stretching the term. This device is rather ineffective as a firing pin block for 99.99% of the bolt travel. The tang touches the firing pin for maybe a couple of thousands of forward movement of the bolt. This so called safety bridge can be easily defeated. Let's say the round is a little long. The shoulder was not properly pushed back and so, now the bolt has to crunch fit the case to the chamber. The bolt is going to stop at a distance back of the receiver bridge, at a distance equal to the interference fit. Mean while, that firing pin is rebounding off the primer, and the lugs are not in engagement. Or, let's say the case is a little fat and the bolt has to crunch fit the case to the chamber. That firing pin is rebounding off the primer, because the bolt had to stop to hammer the case in, and the lugs are not in engagement.

Do you think the Product Managers at Springfield Armory did not know this? Do you think that all the technical experts, retired and active Army Ordnance Employees, writing articles for the American Rifleman, about the safety of the Garand, did not know this? Or were they so incompetent that they did not understand the design and function of their product, but had enough competence to analyze and make claims about non existent safety features?
 
Lawyers have been around a long time.

My Garand won't let the firing pin clear the bridge until the lugs are 90% engaged. That's not 100%.

Maybe calling the firing pin retraction cam a "safety bridge" didn't come about until the sixties (I didn't run into term until about 10 years ago) but My Garand (all military parts) has it.

I remember the discussion being about what primers to use in Garands and M14s back in the 80s and 90s because of firing pin imprints. That's when I was shooting service rifle matches with my father at reduced ranges. I was shooting My Garand. The discussion centered around which primers were harder than others, but I forget what the consensus was. One brand in was supposed to be soft, and another known to be harder than normal. Some guys would only use milsurp.

I think Different has a good write up on the "safety bridge" over on one of the M14 forums
 
One mechanism that causes "out of battery" firing in the AR15 is excessive bolt speed coupled with timing. When the primer is struck cammed down the ignition train starts it's oxidation, the bolt - having impacted the locking lugs - then bounces back unlocking the case and partially extracting it when pressure rises beyond the yield strength.

Light "semi auto" bolt carriers along with light buffers contribute to the issue. It's been filmed repeatedly and posted to the web by credible sources. What they haven't been able to willingly capture is the simultaneous ignition process. The phenomenon is called "bolt bounce" and I believe it could be attributed to a lot of kabooms.

Despite the assumption that an older design with heavy bolt cannot unlock and partially extract, recording it to see would be a more precise and scientific way to ascertain it's not happening. After all, if you swing a hammer onto an anvil it will bounce back. Metal is slightly elastic and rebound isn't impossible in the mechanical arts. If the bolt going forward and locking into place is of a high order, the shooter complains about the sight picture moving just when they are attempting a rapid double. If it can push the sights down on an 8 to 10 pound rifle there's reason to believe a well broken in bolt carrier can unlock and partially extract.

It's not the firing pin hitting the primer early - it can't. It's the bolt rebounding and partially extracting. Self loading guns are subject to forces that do not influence manually operated guns, they are a bird of a different feather.
 
Here are some pictures
The primer is missing. If it fell out on its own, there was High Pressure.

I don't know if steel will show the same pressure signs as brass? Could see if a used primer would stay in the pocket? But if crimped in primers, may not be a good test?
 
I remember the discussion being about what primers to use in Garands and M14s back in the 80s and 90s because of firing pin imprints. That's when I was shooting service rifle matches with my father at reduced ranges. I was shooting My Garand. The discussion centered around which primers were harder than others, but I forget what the consensus was. One brand in was supposed to be soft, and another known to be harder than normal. Some guys would only use milsurp.

The internet was in full bloom around the mid 1990's and shooters were able to compare notes and experiences. I remember bringing this issue up on the now defunct forum: "Shooter's Talk" in the mid to late 1990's. Until the internet, we the shooting community were educated by Gunwriters and Gun Magazines. For over a century, these publications filtered and massaged and created a cultural ignorance that we are still living with today. I have gone through every American Rifleman article, back to 1906, and lots of Gun Magzines, back through the 1950's and have not found any warnings about the use of "soft" primers in any Gun Magazine by any Gun Writer until the turn of this century. That is until we, the shooting community, started raising this issue our selves and warning each other, about the risks of these mechanisms.

The doctrines of Davidianism are that only high primers and your worn out receiver bridge cause slamfires, which was actively promoted by the American Rifleman, lead to dangerous reloading practices. I used to run into shooters who necked sized their 308 brass for their M1a's. Gun writers have promoted neck sizing as improving accuracy and there are neck sizing dies being sold today. I used to run into shooters who also partially neck sized their brass . If you shot high power than you know of the infatuation of the term "Match" on a box of primers and that back then Federal match primers were the most common primer on the firing line. Federal for decades has been proud to proclaim that their primers are the most sensitive primers on the market. The combination of extra sensitive primers and tight cases is the absolute riskiest reloading practice for Garands, M1a's as this creates the perfect condition for out of battery slamfires. Just when did any of those Gunwriters, or Gun magazines warn us about this? These guys are just shills for the industry and the publications are just paid for monthly advertising circulars.

While using the term Davidianism is insulting, I coined it after the name of the last big firearm authority who in the American Rifleman who told us that the only causes of slamfires are high primers and your worn out receiver bridge. The guy knew better and he did not warn us of how the mechanism actually worked, which promoted dangerous reloading practices. If you follow his advice, the end result will be smoke and flame!

These guys just missed out working for the Tobacco Institute, where they would have been informing us that nicotine is not additive, smoking is not harmful, in fact, very beneficial to one's health. Their kids moved over to Big Pharma and are promoting Opioids as non additive and perfectly safe.
 
You guys rock.

The casing was 'together' after the firing. I ran a cleaning rod down the barrel and it popped the rear of the case off like in the picture. The primer did indeed fall out.
 
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