Proving a rifle fired out of battery?

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These are pictures of out of battery slamfires that occurred in Garands. Out of battery pictures are extremely rare, and these rounds look different from the two out of battery slamfires, in Garands, that I had. In each incident, the case burst below the shoulder. I sent those cases to the gunsmiths who had barreled my match Garands and that was before cheap digital cameras.







My cases looked like short cylinders, the cases ruptured below the shoulders and what was left, looked like someone had wet jet cut the cases. Very clean and even cut. These cases look differently and it is apparent due to the case swelling, that they were not fully seated in the chamber when primer ignition occurred.


Slamfires are primarily due to overly sensitive primers. You will run into a group of people I call "Davidians", mostly on Culver's and M14 forums, who believe that only high primers and a worn out "safety bridge" cause slamfires. They were taught this by the US Army, and civilian consultants who also wrote articles for the American Rifleman. The last big article on this, in the American Rifleman, was written by the Prime Davidian. Essentially he claimed the Garand mechanism was perfect, it positively blocked any incidental contact between firing pin and primer, and that the only causes of slamfires were worn out receiver bridges and high primers. The last two causes are shooter misconduct, you allowed your gun to be worn out and you did not seat your primers to depth. What I find interesting about the Prime Davidian is that he was the Government technical expert at the Ichord hearing, he worked on the M16 slamfire investigation, may have lead it. And he determined the primer sensitivity requirements for the M16, to prevent more slamfires. The early M16 used sensitive commercial primers and had a very heavy firing pin. The firing pin was lightened, and the military primer, the #41, was made less sensitive.




Yet, when the M1 Garand and M1a ruled the firing line in NRA sponsored high power matches, when writing an article about the slamfires and the Garand mechanism, in the NRA magazine, American Rifleman, the Prime Davidian never once mentions primer sensitivity. There is no such thing as primer sensitivity, a primer is a primer, is a primer. A reader is left with the assumption that primers are very consistent, only ignite when desired, and that they are all similar, if not identical. Davidians, as a general rule, don't believe that primers vary in sensitivity, and they absolutely don't believe that incidental contact between a firing pin and primer can cause the primer to ignite, either before trigger pull, or before the action is in battery. They have been taught, and they will always believe, that slamfires are only due to shooter negligence. Davidians tend to be judgmental types, positively Puritanical in their viewpoint: that is, evil happens to evil doers. This was an early doctrine of Calvinists in general, that is God protected the select from harm , but you could identify the damned by the misfortune in their lives. Who wants to show, or discuss his slamfire when you know this nasty, irrational type of person will be commenting in the thread?

In any mechanism with a free floating firing pin, there exists the potential of primer ignition due to incidental contact between the firing pin and the primer. It all depends on primer sensitivity, and primers that are more sensitive on average, are more likely to have a firing pin initiated slamfire. Pistol mechanisms do not have the ignition power of rifle mechanisms, so pistol primers tend to be more sensitive than rifle primers. If you notice, very few modern pistol mechanisms have free floating firing pins, starting I think, with the P38 (or maybe earlier, don't know) pistols began having firing pin blocks. These firing pin blocks not only prevent accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped, it prevents in battery slamfires as rounds are chambered.

I am unaware of any semi auto rifle actions that have firing pin blocks. Rifles control slamfires through other techniques, and through primer sensitivity. Military rifles have robust ignition systems, tend to have heavy firing pins, so you will find that military rifle primers are less sensitive than commercial primers sold to American reloaders. One design technique is used by the FAL to reduce slamfires is a spring loaded firing pin. The spring reduces the energy of the firing pin as it rebounds within the bolt. Also, the FAL action was designed so that the firing pin is out of alignment of the primer prior to bolt battery. The bolt face is off axis from the center line of the cartridge, before the rear of the bolt is in battery.



Here the bolt is lined up, as it would be in battery, and the free floating firing pin is perfectly able to rebound off the primer.



I have found a number of accounts of in battery slamfires in FALs, but not an out of battery slamfire incident. However, the previous design, the FN 49, has a number of out of battery accounts on the web:

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=367888



Out of Battery Slamfire in FN49
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=543905


Kaboomed 8mm Egyptian FN-49 .... Now A Floorlamp!!!!

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=132165.0



Argentine 49 7.62x51 KABOOM!
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=106950



These slamfires occurred in spite of anti slamfire feature that the designer patented:

Tilt Locking Breechblock for Automatic Firearms D. J. Saive July 18, 1950, 2,515,315

The spring 32 also forms a safety device (Figure 14) for preventing firing when the breech block is unlocked. As shown in 'Figure' 14, the firing pin 31 has a groove 31a in it and the spring 32 has a lug 32a on it which acts as a safety and, by engaging in the groove 31a, holds the firing pin against forward movement when the breech block is unlocked . When the breech block is not locked (Figrue 8) the rear end of the slide projects beyond the rear end of the firing pin thus preventing the striker from striking said firing pin.

I don't have an FN 49 bolt to examine, but Mr.Saive must have changed the bolt design from the FN 49 and the FAL.

There are other causes of slamfires, mechanical ones. If the hammer follows the bolt down, pressing the firing pin foward, than a slamfire will happen. If had this happen in my first FAL, it was due to a worn out sear/trigger and the thing would double. Thankfully it slamfired in battery.

My Fal probably would not have slam fired if the BATF had not required the safety sear to be taken out of the mechanism. The safety sear is used in automatic fire, and most stupidly, the BATF required it to be taken out. But that safety sear slows hammer reset, and the hammer is less likely to over ride the trigger sear when the safety sear is installed.



One of the rarest types of slamfires is the one of the corner stones of Davidianism: the high primer. Yes a high primer can ignite but a couple of conditions have to be met. The first is that the primer anvil is firmly seated on something. If the anvil is dangling in the air, the most common effect of a high primer is then a misfire. You will read about these all the time and the best advice given to reloaders whose ammunition is misfiring on first strike, but going off on the second, is to seat the primers deeper. The first hammer strike typically seats the primer, the second sets it off.

However, if the cartridge has a shallow pocket, it is possible that a high primer could ignite just through contact with the bolt face. Or, if someone is sticking spacers under their primers, firmly seating the primer anvil on that spacer, but leaving a high primer, than that primer could go off through bolt face contact. This is how Wayne Faatz got his primers to ignite. You can read Wayne Faatz’s article “The Mysterious Slamfire”. https://www.scribd.com/document/2649554/The-Mysterious-Slamfire The guy had a slamfire, assumed it was something he did, because the only causes were all “user” causes: there was no acknowledgement at the time that Garands/M14’s, M1 carbines are susceptible to slamfires and there was no acknowledgement that primer sensitivity varied between brands. His article was published in Davidianism central; The American Rifleman magazine. The American Rifleman actively promoted the idea that slamfires were all due to shooter negligence and this article is an example of their agnotology . If you notice, Wayne Faatz could not get his high primers to slamfire. Even with high pistol primers, none of his high primers would go bang, that is, until, he inserted flattened pistol anvils under the primers. Then he had the condition of a firmly seated primer anvil and was able to get the primer to ignite by dropping the bolt.

In battery slamfires occurr frequently in AR15's, even though the firing pin has been lightened, most civilian ammunition is loaded with sensitive commercial primers. And many reloaders use the most sensitive primers they can find in their AR15's, so called match or benchrest primers, which tend to have thinner cups than military primers. This is the first thread I have ever seen a a documented example of an out of battery slamfire, and I would like to ask the permission of Denton to use his picture, with reference to his post, of an example of an out of battery slamfire in an AR15 mechanism.

Stoner did a good job in designing in features in his AR15 mechanism which reduce the risk of an out of battery slamfire. The firing pin is positively retracted until cam down. The early M16 slamfire accounts we have are all in battery slamfires. I have one shooting bud, who works as a security guard for a Government facility. He and the other security guards were undergoing training, with Government M4 carbines, using Federal Gold Medal match 223. Bud told me that one of the military M4's slamfired out of battery. Bud has seen decades of slamfires with Garands, M1a's, so he ought to know what an out of battery slamfire looks like, but, proving something like that to a Davidian, based on hearsay, well, it is not going to happen.

I don't understand how a AR15 mechanism can slamfire out of battery unless the primer is so sensitive that it just goes off, due to inertia. Or if there was something on the bolt face.

From the pictures I see, that the OP posted, that looks more like an over pressure event than a slamfire. The case head has blown out. The case head has blown out through the thickest portion of the cartridge case. I have seen similar pictures and I think something was wrong with the ammunition, not the gun.
I got an FN 49 in 8MM and I was on the FN site read about the slamfires and sent away for a firing pin. do not remember if it was shorter or had a spring or if it came with another part. it was said to fix the problem. never had a slamfire but I put the parts in
 
It's not the firing pin hitting the primer early - it can't. It's the bolt rebounding and partially extracting.

I think this is a good theory. It fits the function of the mechanism, and the characteristics of primers better than any other explanation I have heard to date.

I kept a post by Hummer70 where he saw a slow motion film of the M14 feeding.

Re: could i set my M1A brass on shoulders back less?

http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=35231

Hummer

Don't know where Mr. Zediker got his information but there is more information to be had. The bullet is long gone before the bolt starts to rotate. The projectile takes much less than 1 millisecond to exit the muzzle. The bolt begins to unlock at 2.0 milliseconds. The bolt is fully unlocked and begins to move rearward at 2.8 milliseconds after the cartridge ignites.

Reference: Springfield Armory Research and Development Division Technical Report SA-TR11-2610 as reproduced in Stevens, R. Blake. U.S. Rifle M14 from John Garand to the M21 Revised Second Edition. Collector Grade Publications: Cobourg, Ontario, Canada, 1991: pp 183 - 186.

Blake came to Picatinny when he was doing research work on the M14 and visited our office and came to our appartment. He was given lots of good info by the folks still there that worked on the M14. The technician that did all the M14 drawings just died about six months back. Nice guy.

I have a copy of SA TN11 1094 which gives timing analysis comparisons between the M1 Garand and the M14.
Initiation time (in milliseconds) of operating rod recoil for the M1 Garand was 1.58 and the M14 was 1.53.

At op rod initiation the M1 bullet exited the muzzle and traveled 7.2" where the M14 bullet had exited the muzzle for 9.2".

At the conclusion of bolt unlock the bullet had traveled 88.9" with the M1 and 123" from the M14 muzzle.

This correlates with the high speed film I saw filmed at SA wherein an M14 was fired a multi round burst with one pull of the trigger and the whole mag was filmed. This film was located in the archives of the Army Small Cal Lab when I worked there and we viewed a number of previously classified films prior to their destruction as the paperwork to declassify them would have taken months and there was nothing on them that was not common knowledge at that time.

The function of the M14 is amazing, This film took perhaps five minutes to watch just a few rounds fired and everything was slowed down to the point the manufacturer and date thereof could be easily seen on each case as it spun out of the rifle.

I clearly remember seeing the hammer slowly pivoting up to strike the tail of the striker and the immediate stiffening of the bolt. The bolt quickly relaxed and was not under any tension. This was prior to any movement of the op rod which when it starts its rearward travel the roller bolt is engaged in a rather violent fashion. The roller of the bolt was struck two to three times raising it a bit each time and finally it achieves the top of the travel and the bolt starts to the rear, the next round came up and was picked up and fed forward. The bolt gets to the end of the travel and another series of jerky movements occurred as the bolt was rotated into battery. The bolt bounces around a bit and finally comes to a complete stop about the same time the op rod ceases to move forward. Again the bolt is relaxed and the hammer is then seen to move toward the striker to fire the next round.

There was also the capability of photographing bullets in bore at any position in it's travel.

What is not widely known is all M14 bolts have cracks at the rear of the locking lugs where it intersects the bolt body.

I had Engineering responsibility for the M14 Rifle and the M21 at Picatinny Arsenal after the move from Rodman Lab and thusly when I read the above statement I knew the facts to be different. Took a few phone calls but I finally located the data and the source thereof which is Springfield Armory where it was designed.


So based on what Hummer saw, there is a lot of movement going on which cannot be seen unless you have a very high speed camera. Undoubtedly the free floating firing pin of the Garand type action is moving back and forth in the bolt, before lug battery, and occasionally, it has enough energy to ignite a sensitive primer.

The carrier on the AR15 could be bouncing back, unlocking the bolt, which would not be a problem if the primer does not ignite. But as we all know, the firing pin is free to rebound off the primer when the lugs are engaged, so, lets say you have a combination of a sensitive primer, a bit of bolt bounce leading to disengaging of the lugs, then, you could have an out of battery slamfire if the timing of the event coincided in a worst case situation.

You can see roller bolt bounce in this video: Last Ditch Innovation: The Development of the Gerat 06 and Gerat 06H Rifles



The Germans had to fix that problem, and they did so in the HK91 series of rifles.


 
This device is rather ineffective as a firing pin block for 99.99% of the bolt travel. The tang touches the firing pin for maybe a couple of thousands of forward movement of the bolt. This so called safety bridge can be easily defeated. Let's say the round is a little long. The shoulder was not properly pushed back and so, now the bolt has to crunch fit the case to the chamber. The bolt is going to stop at a distance back of the receiver bridge, at a distance equal to the interference fit. Mean while, that firing pin is rebounding off the primer, and the lugs are not in engagement. Or, let's say the case is a little fat and the bolt has to crunch fit the case to the chamber. That firing pin is rebounding off the primer, because the bolt had to stop to hammer the case in, and the lugs are not in engagement.

Absolutely. Most obvious example was mentioned earlier where a case separation caused out of battery slam fire when next round could not chamber.

A friend, who is a very experienced competitor and reloader wrecked his match 308 M1 a number of years back. Investigation revealed the batch of cases he was shooting had been reloaded repeatedly and work hardened. He resized w/die set to resize once fired cases to fit his tight chamber and failed to recognize the fact that spring back of the harder brass resulted in snug fit in his chamber, allowing firing pin to strike primer w/sufficient force to ignite it. Obviously the firing pin tail was not in contact w/receiver bridge.

Fortunately, the bolt lug had locked about 1/8" or so in receiver, when slam fire occurred. Blew extractor, ejector out of bolt, bent op rod and rounded receiver where bolt had been partially locked.

To say that an AR cannot slam fire is incorrect. While it is impossible for the firing pin on an AR to reach primer before bolt is in battery when the round chambers properly, primer seated properly, etc., the free floating firing pin can reach a primer in a partially chambered case and could cause a slam fire. If the case were protruding far enough, for example in the event of a case separation leaving obstructed chamber, the bolt could be pushed back into the carrier sufficiently to expose firing pin w/bolt out of battery. This condition would be similar to Slamfire's excellent example of the M1 Carbine bolt below:

Now this is a question about the effectiveness of the receiver bridge as a firing pin block. Between the red lines, which represent the back and forth travel of the firing pin tang, just what is holding that free floating firing pin. Just what is preventing that free floating firing pin from contacting the primer?


Regards,
hps
 
Neither the FAL or the AR can fire out of battery. The bolts of both rifles lock in place before the carriers finish returning to battery. In the case of the FAL, the hammer cannot contact the firing pin before the bolt is locked in place. In the case of the AR, the firing pinn cannot contact the primer until after the bolt is locked in place.

There are rifle designs that do not fully support the case head when the round is chambered and the bolt locked in battery
Never, say never.

An AR can fire out-of-battery.

As stated above, if something breaks or is made off print, and the firing pin is stuck forward, it will fire OOB. It is, however, very, very rare, as many pieces of Swiss cheese have to line up, but it is possible.

-OR-

Overly sensitive primers can cause an OOB, which in the case of an OOB is where I would look first.
 
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One mechanism that causes "out of battery" firing in the AR15 is excessive bolt speed coupled with timing. When the primer is struck cammed down the ignition train starts it's oxidation, the bolt - having impacted the locking lugs - then bounces back unlocking the case and partially extracting it when pressure rises beyond the yield strength.

Light "semi auto" bolt carriers along with light buffers contribute to the issue. It's been filmed repeatedly and posted to the web by credible sources. What they haven't been able to willingly capture is the simultaneous ignition process. The phenomenon is called "bolt bounce" and I believe it could be attributed to a lot of kabooms.

Despite the assumption that an older design with heavy bolt cannot unlock and partially extract, recording it to see would be a more precise and scientific way to ascertain it's not happening. After all, if you swing a hammer onto an anvil it will bounce back. Metal is slightly elastic and rebound isn't impossible in the mechanical arts. If the bolt going forward and locking into place is of a high order, the shooter complains about the sight picture moving just when they are attempting a rapid double. If it can push the sights down on an 8 to 10 pound rifle there's reason to believe a well broken in bolt carrier can unlock and partially extract.

It's not the firing pin hitting the primer early - it can't. It's the bolt rebounding and partially extracting. Self loading guns are subject to forces that do not influence manually operated guns, they are a bird of a different feather.
The bolt would have to bounce back approximately .250" to unlock, and if it did, it would retract the firing pin with it....

The main problem with "bolt bounce" is failure to fire. In full-auto, the hammer drops with the previously mentioned firing pin safety arrangements still engaged. It semi-auto only, bolt bounce rarely causes problems, unless there is another problem.
 
The bolt would have to bounce back approximately .250" to unlock, and if it did, it would retract the firing pin with it....

The main problem with "bolt bounce" is failure to fire. In full-auto, the hammer drops with the previously mentioned firing pin safety arrangements still engaged. It semi-auto only, bolt bounce rarely causes problems, unless there is another problem.

There are known examples of out of battery firings in 223 AR15's. I ran across one account that was very puzzling, the author well documented his rifle and his load, but I did not retain a copy of his posting. In fact, I treated all out of battery AR15 accounts as more or less improbable until my Security Guard bud said he saw one in a Government M4 with Federal Gold Medal match. That added a lot of credibility though the exact mechanism has not been explained.

Out of battery slamfires in AR15's are inexplicable at the current time. We all know the firing pin is retracted when the bolt is unlocked. And has anyone see what the primer looked like? If the primer has a firing pin indentation than it was firing pin initiated. However, if it does not, then something else had to set the primer off. What was that?

If out of battery slamfires happen in AR15's, then all our theories why they can't happen have to be wrong. So, how can they happen?
 
Here is a freak incident that I encountered with a bad batch of M193 ammo. Primer blew and unbeknown to me became lodged between ejector and bolt face. In that position, the spent primer was slammed against the primer of freshly chambered round. Obviously, the bolt was NOT in battery at that moment in time and I felt quite fortunate that an OOB slamfire did not occur. NOTE the position of one leg of the fired primer anvil had to hit the live primer. Had this occurred in concert with a high primer or sensitive primer the outcome could have been quite different.


When loading for a gas gun with floating firing pin, this information regarding primers might prove useful:


http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

Regards,
hps
 
"...No sign of severe pressure on the face of what was the case head..." No other damage to the rifle other than the mag being blown out either. That screams case head failure.
And an FN is not an M1 or FN-49. Quoting internet forums is not documented proof of anything either.
"...internet was in full bloom around the mid 1990's..." It was just ramping up then. No high speed connections. Dial up only and that wasn't widespread until 1994ish. No 56 K modems until the late 90's.
Davidianism was a cult that had some issues with the U.S. Federal government down Waco way in 1993. Nothing to do with primers. High or otherwise.
 
"...No sign of severe pressure on the face of what was the case head..." No other damage to the rifle other than the mag being blown out either. That screams case head failure.
And an FN is not an M1 or FN-49. Quoting internet forums is not documented proof of anything either.
"...internet was in full bloom around the mid 1990's..." It was just ramping up then. No high speed connections. Dial up only and that wasn't widespread until 1994ish. No 56 K modems until the late 90's.
Davidianism was a cult that had some issues with the U.S. Federal government down Waco way in 1993. Nothing to do with primers. High or otherwise.
on an FN and FN 49 gas systems and bolt are very similar
 
Well, if it does not have a copyright, then I will simply steal it!!!!

I appreciate your posting your experience, I have been studying slamfires for a number of decades, finally came to the conclusion, after two out of battery slamfires in Garands, both with Federal primers, that there was something wrong with "Davidianism".

If you are a Government Consultant, you know how little the Government wants to talk, or acknowledge anything that might be construed a failure. I am certain there are lots of out of battery events on military ranges, but not one word will ever appear in public, because they don't want to admit that any thing bad happens, or that their small arms, or ammunition, has issues.

R. Lee of Lee Precision, notes the sensitivity of Federal primers in his reloading manual. What he claims, via an unnamed source at Federal at the time, is that Federal primers use a primer that exhibits more brisance (shattering capability of high explosives) than CCI, Remington, or Winchester. If I recall right, it (the federal priming compound) was termed as Basic by him. That is why for years Lee's hand primer carried a warning for Federal primers and different limits on how many to put in the tray. You can also note the much larger box size and primer trays for Federal versus other primers from US manufacturers.
 
I coined it after the name of the last big firearm authority who in the American Rifleman who told us that the only causes of slamfires are high primers and your worn out receiver bridge.
David Koresh? I think someone beat you to the term "Davidian" particularly when preceded by "Branch" ;)
 
Photo of M16 incident has been updated to include view of the primer strike. If you want to use it, it might be best to act quickly. Photobucket is starting to charge for service, and my pix won't be there long.
 
Photo of M16 incident has been updated to include view of the primer strike. If you want to use it, it might be best to act quickly. Photobucket is starting to charge for service, and my pix won't be there long.

Yep, $400/year!

Regards,
hps
 
To say that an AR cannot slam fire is incorrect.
I've personally experienced an AR slamfire. If you drop a round into the chamber and trip the bolt stop, there may be sufficient firing pin inertia to set off the round.

R. Lee of Lee Precision, notes the sensitivity of Federal primers in his reloading manual. What he claims, via an unnamed source at Federal at the time, is that Federal primers use a primer that exhibits more brisance (shattering capability of high explosives) than CCI, Remington, or Winchester.

The one I saw was a handload, single loaded. No Mag inserted. Federal 205 (soft) primer. I had just told the guy to NOT drop the bolt on a single loaded round. He laughed it off and dropped the bolt anyway. First two times it was OK. Third time, not so much.

During normal operation, the bolt stripping and carrying the new round forward slows the bolt so that auto fire should not be an issue.
 
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I've had an AR15 slamfire that I strongly suspect was out of battery.

I foolishly tried to chamber a round that had an obviously high primer and a slamfire occurred.

I suspect it was out of battery because the case separated, and the rifle's POI permanently shifted about 3 minutes to the right. It was an Armalite Golden eagle with the A2 carry handle rear sight.
 
Anything that happens must be possible.

We have a photo of an out of battery discharge with a clear primer dent. Not a handload. Not a high primer.
 
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