PTR-91 (H&K G3): Max Effective Range?

[Panzerschwein]

Hi guys!

Well I am just about done with my PTR-91 "DMR" build. I took a box stock PTR-91 GI .308 rifle with standard 18" barrel and added the special HK wide forend, folding bipod, and will soon have a Hensoldt Fero Z-24 4x28mm optic on it, among other mainly cosmetic changes.

This optic is a high-quality German made scope made for the HK G3 rifle, and it has a range estimation reticle for up to 600 meters. You use it to measure the apparent size of a man-sized target with a mil scale and then use that measurement to dial in the elevation on the top turret from what I understand. The trigger on my rifle is a typical G3 military trigger, not the best, but not terrible.

So with that being said, would you think that 600 meters is a realistic maximum effective range of this rifle on man sized targets? These PTR-91s and their parent G3 are known to be fairly accurate for what they are, usually about 2 MOA with quality ammunition. So at 600 meters, it should theoretically be able to put all rounds into a roughly 12" circle, more than accurate enough for "center of mass" against a person, assuming that elevation is set correctly or a more precise laser rangefinder is used.

But what about windage at that distance? The scope is adjustable for windage and I skimmed the article describing it's estimation and adjustment process, but to me it seems that's probably the biggest obstacle in getting solid hits at 600 meters with this rifle. At 600 meters and assuming mild or average weather, how big of an issue do you think wind is going to play?

Basically I am hoping to achieve a 600 meter effective range against man-sized targets with this rifle, good ammo, and the optic mentioned. I do not expect or desire to make a tiny group that far, just place a round somewhere on your average enemy soldier silhouette target to (theoretically) put said target out of the fight. Do you rifle shooters think this is a realistic goal? Or is this distance too optimistic for this setup?

Thanks!

Disclaimer: I am asking this question for the purposes of military style target shooting only. I do not intend to hunt any animal or actually shoot an attacking person at this distance, I know both of those would be a terrible idea for moral and legal reasons.

 

[adcoch1]

If you can keep the rate of fire slow enough, and can get a decent trigger pull pattern worked out that isn't jerking the gun all over, you shouldn't have an issue with two moa at 600. The trigger is really what will hold you back most likely, but my brother has one all set up like that (hk furniture and bipod) and his is rather accurate. Of course we've only tried it out to about 200, but hitting a soup can at that distance was pretty easy. It should be fun to try!

 

[Panzerschwein]

If you can keep the rate of fire slow enough, and can get a decent trigger pull pattern worked out that isn't jerking the gun all over, you shouldn't have an issue with two moa at 600. The trigger is really what will hold you back most likely, but my brother has one all set up like that (hk furniture and bipod) and his is rather accurate. Of course we've only tried it out to about 200, but hitting a soup can at that distance was pretty easy. It should be fun to try!

Thanks, Ascoch1.

 

[redbullitt]

The 308 cartridge is very capable for what you describe, and man size targets can certainly be hit at 1000 yards or beyond. I have had success with short 16 and 18 inch precision rifles at 1000 yards on targets. Man sized targets are not a problem.

If you can pull about 2 MOA groups you can hope for 20 inch groups at 1000 if you are lucky. THAT would certainly make any man size target duck and cover at least. Wind will be the biggest challenge there, and the wind will probably be shifting to complicate matters. I suggest holding off, not dialing the correction here. It will help if your scope has mil marks or moa marks.

I see no reason why 600 yards would be a problem if you are up to the task shooting. Your optic adjustments may not be accurate enough to rely on dialing, but the only way to know will be to check it out yourself and shoot a bit.

What size groups do you get at 100 yards with your combo? I would say better than 2 or 3 inches would do the job.

 

[Panzerschwein]

The 308 cartridge is very capable for what you describe, and man size targets can certainly be hit at 1000 yards or beyond. I have had success with short 16 and 18 inch precision rifles at 1000 yards on targets. Man sized targets are not a problem.

If you can pull about 2 MOA groups you can hope for 20 inch groups at 1000 if you are lucky. THAT would certainly make any man size target duck and cover at least. Wind will be the biggest challenge there, and the wind will probably be shifting to complicate matters. I suggest holding off, not dialing the correction here. It will help if your scope has mil marks or moa marks.

I see no reason why 600 yards would be a problem if you are up to the task shooting. Your optic adjustments may not be accurate enough to rely on dialing, but the only way to know will be to check it out yourself and shoot a bit.

What size groups do you get at 100 yards with your combo? I would say better than 2 or 3 inches would do the job.

I am still awaiting on the optic to arrive from Germany (eBay purchase). I am getting about 2" groups at 50 meters with irons off the bench with ZQI 147 grain 7.62x51mm NATO ammo with this rifle, so I am thinking with the 4x Hensoldt optic and the same or better ammo I should be able to get sub 3" groups at 100 meters. I am interested only in "combat accuracy" to the distance of 600 meters. The Z-24 scope I am getting has a measurement system using mils used to estimate range to the target out to 600m. Here is an article that explains it better:

http://mg-42.net/G3_hensoldt.htm

 

[RPRNY]

There is at least one additional mod I would recommend to enhance performance. An uprated spring buffer, available from several sources, substantially reduces felt recoil and seems to delay it. I have the same model you started with, but with a rail. I was able to achieve consistent 5"- 5.5" groups at 300 yards with a fixed 4 x scope using 147 grs fmj PPV ammo. I have now gone to a 2x red dot and shoot 5 shot 2.5" groups at 100 yards.

Improved triggers are available from a guy in Colorado Springs, Bill Something, widely referenced in 91 fora. I also really like the wider recoil pad.

Super rifle. I think 10" - 12" at 600 meters is possible but would investigate a worked on trigger group.

 

[Chuck R.]

Should be doable. I routinely shoot my FAL out to 5-600 using a Vortex 1-4X using teh MOA reticle to compensate for wind. My FAL is a DSA SA58 Para and with handloads does about 1.5 -2 MOA. The pic was me horsing around at 500 on a 2/3rds IDPA silhouette (19.5" x 11.7") swinger shooting of cross sticks sitting. It was easy to stay on the swinger once the wind was doped. Prone off a bipod would be steadier.


Bill Springfield is the guy in CO that works triggers.

Chuck

 

[Panzerschwein]

Thanks so much, gang. I was just wondering if that were not a realistic range for this type of setup but it appears it is. I know it is up to me (the shooter) to do the part though.

 

[Bart B.]

Those 150's will drift about 4 inches at 600 yards for 1 mph cross winds; 12 inches per mph at 1000 yards.

The ammo's groups will enlarge 10 to 15 percent (or more) in MOA for each hundred yards past the first 100 yards. If 2 MOA (2") at 100 yards, then increases 10% each 100 yards, they'll be about 2.9 MOA (17") at 600 yards, about 4.7MOA (47") at 1000. That's caused by spreads in muzzle velocity, bullet drag and atmosphere.

 

[RPRNY]

Should be doable. I routinely shoot my FAL out to 5-600 using a Vortex 1-4X using teh MOA reticle to compensate for wind. My FAL is a DSA SA58 Para and with handloads does about 1.5 -2 MOA. The pic was me horsing around at 500 on a 2/3rds IDPA silhouette (19.5" x 11.7") swinger shooting of cross sticks sitting. It was easy to stay on the swinger once the wind was doped. Prone off a bipod would be steadier.


Bill Springfield is the guy in CO that works triggers.

Chuck

Nothing. Just noting this is about the 4th time I've come back to look at that beautimus rifle of yours...

 

[gotboostvr]

Once you're scoped and shooting at range, try some Federal Gold Medal Match.

The 168gr would probably be your best bet. It'll have less effect on it from wind drift which is the hardest thing for less experienced shooters to compensate for. The 175gr would be "more better" but would also be further from your normal zero.

I shoot only 165/168gr bullets from my (Rem700) 308. Specifically Serria Game and Match Kings, as they're cheap, accurate and easily sourced locally and abroad. They're not high tech, but they work very well.