Jackal
Member
Short answer is: YES
Yes, it will eat steel cased ammo like an AK. In fact, the PTR seems to be one of the least ammo sensitive rifles I've ever personally owned.
PTR-91 vs M1A?
- Thread starter Panzerschwein
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Short answer is: YES
Yes, it will eat steel cased ammo like an AK. In fact, the PTR seems to be one of the least ammo sensitive rifles I've ever personally owned.
OP
OP
Panzerschwein
member
Glad to hear it. It seems that one can get steel cased .308/7.62x51mm cheaper than one can reload brass cased ammo for. I've seen it as low as .40 per shot. Granted, reloading will get one better accuracy but to me just stocking up on some for a rainy day and for training is important.
I have been reading a book about the roller bolts, I am fascinated by the engineering of the things. It is apparent by the text, that the original German designs took into account steel cases. I have fired chinese steel case ball. Was not particularly accurate but it went bang.
The roller bolt actions are a highly advanced delayed blowback mechanism. They are perhaps the greatest advancement on the delayed blowback mechanism. The greatest problem the delayed blow back mechanism had, for high powered cartridges, was inadequate case lubrication.
Mauser built a semi automatic rifle for the German Army, it was used in Zeppelin service, and it was a delayed blowback 8 X 57 mm. It required greased cases. Since Zeppelins were relatively clean, it was possible to keep the dirt off the greased cartridges.
Early delayed blowbacks used oilers. There were a number of successfully fielded delayed blowback military weapons, and these early ones used oilers:
This is the Schwarzlose:
This is the Italian Breda 30
This is a Japanese Nambu and the second picture has the oiler, under the cap.
Oil did not provide enough lubrication for the big delayed blow back mechanisms. Our forces used 20mm delayed blowback machine cannons that required greased cartridges. The 20 mm Oerlikon was used on planes, trains, wheeled vehicles, ships, boats, fixed installations. General Hatcher's Ordnance Department built over 150,000 Oerlikon's and all of them used greased cartridges.
What made the roller bolt a success, and sent oilers and greasers to the ash heap of history, were chamber flutes. The chamber flute taps into the combustion gases going up the barrel and floats the upper 2/3 rds of the case off the chamber. This is an effective passive technique to reducing case friction, and thus, increases bolt thrust. Increasing bolt thrust in delayed blowback mechanisms increases the function reliability.
One drawback is that the case looks like heck after it has been extracted:
Decreasing chamber to case friction improves function reliability in all automatic and semi automatic mechanisms. Even though the M16 was designed without an oiler or chamber flutes, XTRAN is selling AR type rifles with their own special chamber flutes, to improve extraction by breaking the friction between case and chamber.
Since the roller bolts were built as military weapons, reloading was not a consideration. Also, the chamber flutes must be kept clean. Clogging of the chamber flutes will result in a failure to extract, again, because friction between the case and chamber is too high. Certain ammunition will clog a fluted chamber. I have heard that ammunition that has a lot of tar sealant will clog the flutes. I sort of got around this by applying oil to LC ammunition in the magazine stack, the oil helps solvate crud. This is messy, your hands get oily, oil blows out the side as a plume. But it helps function reliability. Never did this with chinese, I don't recall tar sealed bullets in chinese ammunition.
The roller bolt actions are a highly advanced delayed blowback mechanism. They are perhaps the greatest advancement on the delayed blowback mechanism. The greatest problem the delayed blow back mechanism had, for high powered cartridges, was inadequate case lubrication.
Mauser built a semi automatic rifle for the German Army, it was used in Zeppelin service, and it was a delayed blowback 8 X 57 mm. It required greased cases. Since Zeppelins were relatively clean, it was possible to keep the dirt off the greased cartridges.
Early delayed blowbacks used oilers. There were a number of successfully fielded delayed blowback military weapons, and these early ones used oilers:
This is the Schwarzlose:
This is the Italian Breda 30
This is a Japanese Nambu and the second picture has the oiler, under the cap.
Oil did not provide enough lubrication for the big delayed blow back mechanisms. Our forces used 20mm delayed blowback machine cannons that required greased cartridges. The 20 mm Oerlikon was used on planes, trains, wheeled vehicles, ships, boats, fixed installations. General Hatcher's Ordnance Department built over 150,000 Oerlikon's and all of them used greased cartridges.
What made the roller bolt a success, and sent oilers and greasers to the ash heap of history, were chamber flutes. The chamber flute taps into the combustion gases going up the barrel and floats the upper 2/3 rds of the case off the chamber. This is an effective passive technique to reducing case friction, and thus, increases bolt thrust. Increasing bolt thrust in delayed blowback mechanisms increases the function reliability.
One drawback is that the case looks like heck after it has been extracted:
Decreasing chamber to case friction improves function reliability in all automatic and semi automatic mechanisms. Even though the M16 was designed without an oiler or chamber flutes, XTRAN is selling AR type rifles with their own special chamber flutes, to improve extraction by breaking the friction between case and chamber.
Since the roller bolts were built as military weapons, reloading was not a consideration. Also, the chamber flutes must be kept clean. Clogging of the chamber flutes will result in a failure to extract, again, because friction between the case and chamber is too high. Certain ammunition will clog a fluted chamber. I have heard that ammunition that has a lot of tar sealant will clog the flutes. I sort of got around this by applying oil to LC ammunition in the magazine stack, the oil helps solvate crud. This is messy, your hands get oily, oil blows out the side as a plume. But it helps function reliability. Never did this with chinese, I don't recall tar sealed bullets in chinese ammunition.
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Jackal
Member
Check out Walmart for ZQI ammo. Brass cased, clean, accurate and $9.97/20.
I really enjoy my PTR. (and my CETME for that matter)
I also did a Bill Springfield Trigger job on the PTR and recommend it. I have the mag release parts laying around, waiting for me to have the time to install them.
M1A's have never really done anything for me, although my Garand is fun, In GI config I'd take a PTR, wood furniture, and the Mag release repair over an M1A with a wood stock and sights. But it's more about style. They are both capable battle rifles.
My PTR:
I don't have a picture of my CETME handy, but it's more of the "old School" you seem to be going for.
I also did a Bill Springfield Trigger job on the PTR and recommend it. I have the mag release parts laying around, waiting for me to have the time to install them.
M1A's have never really done anything for me, although my Garand is fun, In GI config I'd take a PTR, wood furniture, and the Mag release repair over an M1A with a wood stock and sights. But it's more about style. They are both capable battle rifles.
My PTR:
I don't have a picture of my CETME handy, but it's more of the "old School" you seem to be going for.
AK103K
member
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I had a couple of HK's, three FAL's, and four M1A's, and of the three, the HK's would be my choice for an "overall" choice.
The M1A would be second, and you can keep the FAL's.
My HK's shot every bit as good as my similar grade M1A's, and were a lot more versatile when it came to accessories.
Ergonomics are a matter of familiarity and training. Once youre become familiar with the HK's (like the AK's), the so called problems tend to disappear. Its like anything else, you have to run the HK's like HK's, just like you run the others like they are meant to be run.
I still believe HK has the best all around "combat" iron sights, but you need to understand them and how they work. Many seem not to. Zeroing does require a tool, but once set, they are set.
With a good claw mount (HK or ARMS), the HK's are easily set up with zero repeatable optics.
If you use a port buffer, brass is easily reloadable, but it is shorter lived, or at least that was my experience. I usually only got around 6 loadings out of them, where I would usually get around 8-10 with my M1A's/M1's. Yes, the brass can get sooty, but the flutes only leave light scratches. I always tumble my brass, and it always cleaned up nicely.
I know a lot of people dont like the HK triggers, and they are an acquired taste. If you shoot revolvers, DAO autos, etc, I think the transition is easier. I do think its a mistake to have them turned into a tuned "American" trigger. My one buddy had Williams do his, and while they did a great job, what was done, was not meant for that type rifle, and I always felt it was unsafe for anything but bench or target type shooting.
If youre into "target" shooting, the M1A's are probably a better choice. I owned Standard, Bush, and SOCOM versions, as well as a NM rifle. The older M1A's (late 80's, early 90's) were the better rifles. The later guns, not so much. The SOCOM was my last, and between it, and the last half dozen or so 1911's of theirs I had, Ive sworn off Springfields guns all together. I wouldnt buy one unless I could shoot it first.
I had a bad run with the FAL's. My FN was "OK", reliable, and basically a decent gun, from a working standpoint, but it wasnt what I considered accurate. The others, meh. Aggravating would be putting it mildly. To be fair there though, they were early "kit" guns, and another hard lesson learned. No more kit guns for me, FAL, AK, AR.
The M1A would be second, and you can keep the FAL's.
My HK's shot every bit as good as my similar grade M1A's, and were a lot more versatile when it came to accessories.
Ergonomics are a matter of familiarity and training. Once youre become familiar with the HK's (like the AK's), the so called problems tend to disappear. Its like anything else, you have to run the HK's like HK's, just like you run the others like they are meant to be run.
I still believe HK has the best all around "combat" iron sights, but you need to understand them and how they work. Many seem not to. Zeroing does require a tool, but once set, they are set.
With a good claw mount (HK or ARMS), the HK's are easily set up with zero repeatable optics.
If you use a port buffer, brass is easily reloadable, but it is shorter lived, or at least that was my experience. I usually only got around 6 loadings out of them, where I would usually get around 8-10 with my M1A's/M1's. Yes, the brass can get sooty, but the flutes only leave light scratches. I always tumble my brass, and it always cleaned up nicely.
I know a lot of people dont like the HK triggers, and they are an acquired taste. If you shoot revolvers, DAO autos, etc, I think the transition is easier. I do think its a mistake to have them turned into a tuned "American" trigger. My one buddy had Williams do his, and while they did a great job, what was done, was not meant for that type rifle, and I always felt it was unsafe for anything but bench or target type shooting.
If youre into "target" shooting, the M1A's are probably a better choice. I owned Standard, Bush, and SOCOM versions, as well as a NM rifle. The older M1A's (late 80's, early 90's) were the better rifles. The later guns, not so much. The SOCOM was my last, and between it, and the last half dozen or so 1911's of theirs I had, Ive sworn off Springfields guns all together. I wouldnt buy one unless I could shoot it first.
I had a bad run with the FAL's. My FN was "OK", reliable, and basically a decent gun, from a working standpoint, but it wasnt what I considered accurate. The others, meh. Aggravating would be putting it mildly. To be fair there though, they were early "kit" guns, and another hard lesson learned. No more kit guns for me, FAL, AK, AR.
Ironicaintit
Member
I voted for the PTR. But, im biased. I have never shot an M1A, and Ive always liked HK91s. Mine has spacers on the butt, giving me about 1.5" extra. It fits me fine.
I even like my cetme (my first .30 cal rifle), even though it really is an out of spec pile of drunkenly assembled parts. Cant trust it, but its fun and it gives me practice clearing jams.
I even like my cetme (my first .30 cal rifle), even though it really is an out of spec pile of drunkenly assembled parts. Cant trust it, but its fun and it gives me practice clearing jams.
A note about the chamber flutes, keeping them clean was a lot more important with the early JLD rifles, the current production PTR's like the GI model you're looking at don't typically have issues with dirty flutes. I've never once cleaned the flutes on my GI and it hasn't given me any issues at all.
The PTR really is a good buy, if you like lots of different furniture and stock options, QD scope mounts, cheap mags, and rock solid reliability. But its not for everyone, so its best of course to try it out beforehand if possible.
The PTR really is a good buy, if you like lots of different furniture and stock options, QD scope mounts, cheap mags, and rock solid reliability. But its not for everyone, so its best of course to try it out beforehand if possible.
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FIVETWOSEVEN
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Wasn't the military issue L1A1 semi auto?
OP
OP
Panzerschwein
member
Glad to hear it, guys.
I'm currently looking for a good price on a PTR-91 GI. I see Atlantic Firearms has them for $799, naturally they're out of stock. Anyone know where I can find one for a reasonable price that's in stock?
I'm currently looking for a good price on a PTR-91 GI. I see Atlantic Firearms has them for $799, naturally they're out of stock. Anyone know where I can find one for a reasonable price that's in stock?
Jackal
Member
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...+GI+.308+18"+Special+Edition+wGreen+Furniture
I must have gotten lucky with my PTR GI, it has a 7lb, crisp pull. Not mushy at all, no creep, just clean let off at 7-7.5lb.
I must have gotten lucky with my PTR GI, it has a 7lb, crisp pull. Not mushy at all, no creep, just clean let off at 7-7.5lb.
briansmithwins
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A relatively minor point, without some way of reducing friction between the case and the chamber in high power blowback operated weapons, you'll see case separations more than short stroking. The front of the case stays forward while the bolt moves to the rear, stretching the case until it fails.
The roller delayed blowback system is a awesome example of engineering and in theory it's simpler than standard gas piston* operation or recoil operation.
Sadly, in practice it's so hard to pull off that roller delayed blowback firearms aren't any cheaper (or lighter) than gas or recoil operated arms.
BSW
*Yes, I know that blowback operation can be classed as as type gas piston action where the cartridge case serves as a one shot piston to actuate the bolt directly.
OP
OP
Panzerschwein
member
Thanks for the link, I went ahead and ordered one of these!
I just hope it's a good rifle... everything I've read so far indicates these are good guns for the money. I just want a reliable, hard hitting and KISS type .308/7.62mm battle rifle. The M1A, as much as I admire it, is beyond my price range. I could buy two of these for just over the price of one M1A. I'll have a bunch of money left over for magazines, and ammo! The local Wal-Mart has ZQ 7.62x51mm in stock, and I'll be hitting the shelves tomorrow to make sure I've got enough on hand to put it through it's paces at the range. God I can't wait!!
Thanks so much everyone. I'll be sure to keep you all posted.
PS: Does anyone know how many magazines come with these new PTR-91 rifles?
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lysanderxiii
Member
I have bought the four major 7.62mm semi-auto military-type rifles, the M1A, FAL, CETME, and the 7.62mm AR.
I still have the M1A, the FAL and the 7.62, AR....YMMV
I still have the M1A, the FAL and the 7.62, AR....YMMV
Looking forward to your range report. Gabe Suarez was all about the PTR-91 a few years ago, if you go to the 'general assault rifle' section of his warriortalk forums and search 'ptr91' it comes up with 3 pages of threads. You might find some useful info there.
Big Bad Bob
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- Feb 25, 2011
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- 388
Why not also consider the FN FAL or AR-10? These equally fit your requests for performance, budget, price etc?
My vote is for the PTR, given that it fits into the parameters you specified, mags are dirt cheap and parts are a plenty.
Im not knocking the M1A, it has the retro appeal, but mags are EXPENSIVE, its also a heavy rifle. I remember back in 2008 I was going to buy a standard M1A, going price was about $900 and I thought about how $900 was alot of money to pay for a 2 MOA battle rifle that mounting an optic too was not the easiest thing to do. Now, $900 for a standard M1A would be an unheard of deal. If Springfield can find a way to get the rifle back to under a grand, I think they will sell more and I would buy one.
My vote is for the PTR, given that it fits into the parameters you specified, mags are dirt cheap and parts are a plenty.
Im not knocking the M1A, it has the retro appeal, but mags are EXPENSIVE, its also a heavy rifle. I remember back in 2008 I was going to buy a standard M1A, going price was about $900 and I thought about how $900 was alot of money to pay for a 2 MOA battle rifle that mounting an optic too was not the easiest thing to do. Now, $900 for a standard M1A would be an unheard of deal. If Springfield can find a way to get the rifle back to under a grand, I think they will sell more and I would buy one.
wally
Member
The M16 is in no way blow back operated. Making a special AR barrel with chamber flutes, talk about marketing a solution to a non-problem!
The "damage" to brass cases is cosmetic, they reload just fine -- if you can find them and they aren't dented. Ejection is vigorous enough to often be joked about as "defending your right flank as you shoot"
rbernie
Contributing Member
I've not found a lot of difference in weight between the traditional players in the 308 semiauto 'battle rifle' field; my FALs and PTRs and M1A didn't seem noticeably different from each other in that regard. I suspect that only by moving into much more 'current' options will there be a clear weight and balance improvement.
Of the three, I find the M1A manual of arms to be the most intuitive and the easiest to use over time.
Of the three, I find the M1A manual of arms to be the most intuitive and the easiest to use over time.
I never said the M16 is a blow back mechanism. However, all, and I mean all semi automatic or automatic mechanisms will have improved extraction reliability if case to chamber friction is reduced as much as possible.
The M4 was having enough extractor lift issues that the Army conducted this study:
Understanding Extractor Lift in the M16 Family of Weapons
www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003smallarms/din.ppt
A summary is that friction between the case and chamber was defeating the residual blowback effect. Instead of sliding back, the case was dragging in the chamber and failed to extract. Notice in the test set up, to get proper extraction function, the Army greased the cartridge case.
It is my opinion that every semi auto mechanism ought to have fluted chambers, regardless whether they are gas, delayed blowback, short recoil, etc. I want that case to eject each and every time I pull the trigger.
EvilGenius
Member
I just bought a PTR91 GI model last month and shot it for the first time in a 3 gun match I was working over the weekend on friday.
It was rough to operate it when I first got it, but after running a 20rd mag through it during my attempt to sight it in. It smoothed out considerably. Now with ~200 rounds though it, it's pretty smooth.
The surplus stock and handguard it came with a scratched up a bit, but it doesn't bother me. Just be aware.
Also be aware that all of the models provided by PTR come with a picatinny rail welded to the top of the receiver just in front of the rear sight, but it honestly looks like it belongs there.
The stock sights are accurate when you get them sighted in, but they are wonky as hell. The windage screw has about 3/4 of a turn of freeplay when you change directions. I have yet to attempt to adjust the elevation. I had put an old primary arms red dot on it from my AR and it killed that optic half way through my first stage. So in between stages I ran down to the zero range and started working on a 25yd target. I drew a 1" circle on the target and decided to use the 200yd setting first because it's aligns the sights a little more accurately by using the peep hole. It was hitting about 4" low 2-3 left of the circle. Eventually, i was able to get the windage close enough, but when I switched to the 300yd setting ti was back at 4" low and to the left again, but switching to the 400yd setting the bullets were hitting right at the bottom center of the circle!
!?!?
I decided to just use that setting the rest of the day and it worked great for me. I hit everything I needed to if I did my part. But when I have more time I will definitely have to sit down at a long range and really get it dialed in.
The gun itself ran flawlessly and while everyone complains about the recoil, I was used to it by the second mag and honestly, it's a pleasure to shoot compared to a 12ga.
The only other problem I have is that the parkerization on my particular GI model is really light. It rained sunday morning and I had the windows cracked on my car. The rifle was inside of the plastic case they come with from the manufacturer, but enough moisture was able to get in that it now has what looks like a bad skin rash. Little splotches of surface rust all over. While normally I'd send it right back, I consider this my fault as I should've paid more attention to the weather. Sitting in a safe in a climate controlled house, I don't think it would rust hardly at all, if ever.
All that said, I am in love with this rifle and I was planning on either painting it myself or having it cerakoted anyways.
EDIT: Here are some pics with the red dot it had.
It was rough to operate it when I first got it, but after running a 20rd mag through it during my attempt to sight it in. It smoothed out considerably. Now with ~200 rounds though it, it's pretty smooth.
The surplus stock and handguard it came with a scratched up a bit, but it doesn't bother me. Just be aware.
Also be aware that all of the models provided by PTR come with a picatinny rail welded to the top of the receiver just in front of the rear sight, but it honestly looks like it belongs there.
The stock sights are accurate when you get them sighted in, but they are wonky as hell. The windage screw has about 3/4 of a turn of freeplay when you change directions. I have yet to attempt to adjust the elevation. I had put an old primary arms red dot on it from my AR and it killed that optic half way through my first stage. So in between stages I ran down to the zero range and started working on a 25yd target. I drew a 1" circle on the target and decided to use the 200yd setting first because it's aligns the sights a little more accurately by using the peep hole. It was hitting about 4" low 2-3 left of the circle. Eventually, i was able to get the windage close enough, but when I switched to the 300yd setting ti was back at 4" low and to the left again, but switching to the 400yd setting the bullets were hitting right at the bottom center of the circle!
!?!?
I decided to just use that setting the rest of the day and it worked great for me. I hit everything I needed to if I did my part. But when I have more time I will definitely have to sit down at a long range and really get it dialed in.
The gun itself ran flawlessly and while everyone complains about the recoil, I was used to it by the second mag and honestly, it's a pleasure to shoot compared to a 12ga.
The only other problem I have is that the parkerization on my particular GI model is really light. It rained sunday morning and I had the windows cracked on my car. The rifle was inside of the plastic case they come with from the manufacturer, but enough moisture was able to get in that it now has what looks like a bad skin rash. Little splotches of surface rust all over. While normally I'd send it right back, I consider this my fault as I should've paid more attention to the weather. Sitting in a safe in a climate controlled house, I don't think it would rust hardly at all, if ever.
All that said, I am in love with this rifle and I was planning on either painting it myself or having it cerakoted anyways.
EDIT: Here are some pics with the red dot it had.
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Fixed that for ya.
You bring up a good point about the windage adjustment, I intend to replace the knob on my PTR with an HK windage screw, gets rid of that annoying play the knob has.
There are a couple of different tools you can buy made specifically for elevation adjustment, but some folks have used needlenose pliers or forceps with success.
The op made his desicion back in post 38. Let's called this one asked and answered.
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