Purchase of handgun at gun show issue

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Kyl3

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Hello,
I live down in South Florida and there is a gun show coming to my area. I am going with a friend who is 18 years old, and he wants to know whether or not he can purchase a handgun there. I realize that you need to be 21 years old to purchase a handgun from an FFL, however, at age 18 you can buy a handgun from a private sale. Do you guys think there will be any private vendors at the show that will sell a handgun to an 18 year old?

Thank you.
 
Do you guys think there will be any private vendors at the show that will sell a handgun to an 18 year old?


The only answer to your question is to go and find out.
 
I know there were plenty of folks at gun shows that would sell to me when I was 18. I never had anyone ask me how old I was when I tried to buy from a random guy in the aisles. Sometimes even a dealer would sell to me if I asked if it was part of a private collection. Just whip out the green and let it do your talking for you! ;)
 
Sometimes even a dealer would sell to me if I asked if it was part of a private collection.

That was foolish on both yours and the dealer's part. Glad you got away with it, but lets not give the OP advice or ideas that could get his friend in trouble, eh?
 
Yes there may be. However, there will be many people there who have no flipping clue what the law actually is and will even go as far as to literally make up crap especially when it becomes evident that you know what you're talking about and they do not.

Be prepared to stand your ground
-Read the state laws
-Have them printed out even
-Be polite and yet firm
-Don't get too angry. Just walk away if it isn't going well

Don't be surprised if the law enforcement that is there is completely ignorant of the law as well. See the last paragraph.

Also be prepared to make the distinction between state law and federal law. That's the main sticking point to people's understanding that I run into.

There's an interesting thread on here somewhere about an incident at a VA gun show regarding someone under 21 buying a handgun (which is perfectly legal in VA). I can't locate it, but perhaps somebody else remembers what it was titled. Basically someone was reported to the police by some "concerned citizens" for buying a handgun while being under 21. The police did not know either, so they looked it up, came back and said everything was kosher. I believe they were state troopers even. To their credit, they looked it up.
 
kingpin008 said:
Quote:
Sometimes even a dealer would sell to me if I asked if it was part of a private collection.

That was foolish on both yours and the dealer's part. Glad you got away with it, but lets not give the OP advice or ideas that could get his friend in trouble, eh?

Why? How is that going to get his friend in trouble? It's only illegal to lie to a licensed dealer about any fact pertinent to the lawfullness of the sale. If his friend asks a guy if this gun is being sold as part of a private collection, there is no crime being committed.
 
AFAIK, the gun can be legally sold from the dealer's private collection without going through his book (NICS/4473), as long as his business isn't a sole prop-ship.

Don't quote me on that though.
 
I know there were plenty of folks at gun shows that would sell to me when I was 18. I never had anyone ask me how old I was when I tried to buy from a random guy in the aisles. Sometimes even a dealer would sell to me if I asked if it was part of a private collection. Just whip out the green and let it do your talking for you!

And this is exactly why gun shows have a bad reputation among the general public! If you can buy a gun with no questions asked, then so can a convicted felon, a Mexican gun-runner, or an adjudicated mental patient. Now, I understand why gun people would be against further restrictions at gun shows, because of the "slippery slope" aspect and the tribal "us against them" (the antis) aspect. But taken on its merits, a case can be made that everybody who sets up a table at a gun show is in fact "engaging in the business" and should therefore have an FFL. Or at least require non-licenses to get Form 4473's and call in for NICS checks (after instituting a procedure for this).

The flip side of this is that FFL's would have to be made easier to obtain, with the gun shows themselves qualifying as the "place of business." A lot of people, then, could get FFL's with residential-zoned home-based businesses, that primarily did their sales at gun shows.

When I had my FFL and would set up at gun shows, one of the things that really bugged me was the flagrant disregard of the rules and the anarchist attitude of the unlicensed sellers. By golly, if I had to jump through all the hoops, so should they!

OK, fire away with the flames....
 
AlexanderA: The flip side of this is that FFL's would have to be made easier to obtain, with the gun shows themselves qualifying as the "place of business."
Ehhhhh.........licensed dealers can ALREADY conduct business at a gun show.

A lot of people, then, could get FFL's with residential-zoned home-based businesses, that primarily did their sales at gun shows.
Again........that is legal NOW. ATF regulations permit a licensee to conduct business at either their licensed premises OR a gun show.

FFL's are not difficult to obtain. As long as you can legally operate as a business from your licensed premises and have all required business licenses, sales tax permits, etc.........you'll be issued an FFL.
 
Be prepared to stand your ground
-Read the state laws
-Have them printed out even
-Be polite and yet firm
-Don't get too angry. Just walk away if it isn't going well



If I didn't want to sell a gun to a 18 yr old I don't think any of these things would change my mind.
 
dogtown tom wrote:
Quote:
AlexanderA: The flip side of this is that FFL's would have to be made easier to obtain, with the gun shows themselves qualifying as the "place of business."

Ehhhhh.........licensed dealers can ALREADY conduct business at a gun show.

I know that. What I was trying to say was that, if FFL's were required of all currently unlicensed sellers at gun shows, then the criteria for issuing FFL's would, as a practical matter, have to be relaxed.

Quote:
A lot of people, then, could get FFL's with residential-zoned home-based businesses, that primarily did their sales at gun shows.

Again........that is legal NOW. ATF regulations permit a licensee to conduct business at either their licensed premises OR a gun show.

Actually, a licensee can conduct business at both the licensed premises and at gun shows.

FFL's are not difficult to obtain. As long as you can legally operate as a business from your licensed premises and have all required business licenses, sales tax permits, etc.........you'll be issued an FFL.

I disagree. If FFL's were so easy to obtain, then why were hundreds of thousands of kitchen-table FFL's forced to give up their licenses in the mid-1980's? When I had my FFL, I took care to satisfy the home-based business zoning requirements in my area, get an occupancy permit, pay the local business license tax, collect state sales tax, etc., etc. Yet even I saw the handwriting on the wall when the ATF fees were raised and they started their concerted effort to drive small dealers out of business. It got to the point where the hassle just wasn't worth it for me any more. (And this was all by design on the ATF's part, since they -- or rather, the antigunners -- claimed that there were too many FFL's for them to adequately supervise.)

Requiring FFL's for all currently unlicensed sellers at gun shows would by necessity reverse this. Of course, the current FFL holders would scream bloody murder, because it would destroy their monopolies.
 
AlexanderA: .....I disagree. If FFL's were so easy to obtain, then why were hundreds of thousands of kitchen-table FFL's forced to give up their licenses in the mid-1980's?
Because ATF began enforcing the law.......those licensees were told to begin abiding by their own city, state, or county laws, zoning and obtain business licensees or sales tax permits. Some chose to comply, some could not because of zoning issues or local laws. Many also chose not to renew because of an increase in license fees.

When I had my FFL, I took care to satisfy the home-based business zoning requirements in my area, get an occupancy permit, pay the local business license tax, collect state sales tax, etc., etc. Yet even I saw the handwriting on the wall when the ATF fees were raised and they started their concerted effort to drive small dealers out of business. It got to the point where the hassle just wasn't worth it for me any more. (And this was all by design on the ATF's part, since they -- or rather, the antigunners -- claimed that there were too many FFL's for them to adequately supervise.)
The hassle of running a business wasn't worth it? :scrutiny: I believed that "ATF hates small FFL's" too........until I did a bit of reading. It's internet myth. ATF was more than helpful during my application process. The only discouragement was right on these gun forums were every Billy Bob gun owner in America said it couldn't be done because "kitchen table" dealers aren't allowed. Horsehockey. I got my FFL while I was between houses.....a one bedroom apartment with no room for a kitchen table. The biggest hassle was waiting at the county sheriffs office to get fingerprinted.

The Federal Firearms License is a "shall issue" license. If you can operate legally at your licensed premises you will get the license.

Requiring FFL's for all currently unlicensed sellers at gun shows would by necessity reverse this. Of course, the current FFL holders would scream bloody murder, because it would destroy their monopolies.
You contradict yourself.
First, you say ATF ran all the small timers out of business, now you want them to license everyone?
Second, it's illogical to say that current FFL holders would complain about EVERY SELLER being licensed......most would welcome the idea that everyone in the building had to undergo the same background check and expenses that a licensee would have.
Third, What "monopolies"?:scrutiny: Federal law allows anyone to apply for a license. Want to be in the business of dealing guns? Get a license. It's that simple.
Fourth, What makes you think that the unlicensed sellers WANT to be licensed? With the FFL comes a few little laws and regulations that don't apply to Joe Public. How many want to endure the same level of oversight as current licensed dealers? Not many I'll bet.

I think you've been reading too much of the Brady campaign material.:barf:
 
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