Pushing the envelope on SBR regulations

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Davek1977 - Sorry I didn't clarify, I meant in my state it makes a difference.

HSO - I don't find the brace uncomfortable at all, even after multiple mags. Also you don't have to push it on all the way, mine is actually only 3" on the tube (stays snug for range play, going to make it permanent when I get the exact length I want) which balances it out and makes it longer. If you were to shoulder it, it would give you a nice cheek weld on the top of the brace.
 
Words of caution...

While the ATF may have blessed these devices in their submitted configurations, for their stated uses, if you use one as a shoulder stock you are probably opening yourself up for trouble if an agent feels like it. For instance; the infamous 'shoelace machinegun' trope of years ago was resolved such that a shoelace in proximity was not a machinegun, but if you loop it around the trigger and charging handle you're on your way to the Grey-Bar Motel. If an agent spots you hunched up on your arm brace so it is pressed into your shoulder, you may have some explaining to do (which you won't be able to afford, right or wrong)

Moreover, if the ATF gets the idea that these braces are commonly used for stocks (i.e. lots of Youtube videos of idiots using them thusly) they will rescind their approval for the company to sell them, and probably deem the articles contraband to be modified/destroyed/refunded/surrendered/amnestied

Flouting the law only goes so far; you do still have to repeal it at some point if you want to rest easy.

Note: the SIG MPX barrel extension/suppressor baffles were briefly approved, then rescinded before production by the ATF. Their redesign/reapproval appears to be primary driver for the product's delay in delivery. I'd had a feeling that wouldn't fly; using one NFA item to disqualify a second NFA item from regulation --hilarious, but begging a bit much from the master.

TCB
 
You could say the same thing for the longer buffer tubes that would allow an AR pistol to be fired from the shoulder. But I agree - the next time the opportunity comes up for "compromise" we should push for some kind of gains. I think getting rid of the SBR problem entirely would be a good thing to start with.
 
Barnbwt, I believe what they are trying to say is that it's not in the use, but in the designation. The brace is designated as a brace, not a stock. So even if you shoulder it, it's still designated as a brace which is what they're keying onto, if I'm understanding it right.

I've been mulling over the advise that it's legal to shoulder all day. The video locks onto the wording of "while attached to a firearm" not while attached to your arm. So even though the function of the brace is to brace to your arm, the ATF seems to only regulate the cosmetics, not the end use.

If I'm off base someone correct me.
 
"the ATF seems to only regulate the cosmetics, not the end use."

(Yeah, it's Wiki, but whatever)
"Short-barreled rifle (SBR) is a legal designation in the United States, referring to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm with a barrel length of less than 16 inches (40.6 cm) or overall length of less than 26 inches (66.0 cm)."

IIRC, the law itself refers to a "shoulder fired" arm as well, as opposed to "designed to be fired from the shoulder." That kind of language is what's seen in 922r, which is why spade-gripped belt feds don't need compliance parts. Unlike the more modern laws which really do accomplish nothing but cosmetic restrictions, the writers in 1934 actually had enough sense to more or less ban the activities they wanted gone (concealable rifles, shotguns, sound-reducing features, cheap/simple rapid firing autoloaders) and left enough vagueness for an unrestricted regulator to fill in plenty of gaps. The reason the angled foregrip by Magpul isn't considered a vertical foregrip in the AOW sense, is because it is a shallow enough angle its use is indistinguishable from a truly horizontal grip (yeah, I know, it's an arbitrary distinction, but that's basically what the ATF's finding was)--there's still no defined angle that constitutes "vertical" in their mind, so every different submission must seek independent approval. Part of me wonders if SIG and Magpul get away with these things simply because they do so much government work that the ATF is not sicced on them by hostile authorities.

My beef with people pushing the ATF ("poking the bear" as it were) is that it is ultimately pointless. Unlike a real system of law, where precedent carries real weight and consequence, at the ATF it's basically decided by individual agents at individual times with no regard to the past or future ramifications. I think reproduction Mauser Broomhandle stocks have toggled legal/illegal about a half dozen times at this point. Ergo, all the bravery and sacrifice in the world to "stand up the man" and force the ATF's hand can be undone by the next Bureau head (and will be). It's like trying to force the President to undo his Executive Actions --why bother? They carry no weight to the next guy and will be removed much easier if they remain odious.

What we need is people to contact their reps and make them pass a law requiring A) the ATF to clarify its position in a legally-binding way on a range of common disputes, or B) define new specific guidelines the ATF is to abide by going forward, or C) stipulate that ATF approval/rejection letters are to be considered legally binding, public (after some fixed delay, to protect innovation), and are to be reviewed/approved if not written by a court of judges independent of the agency (and Executive branch, preferably). A) Gives the ATF too much input, B) gives Congress too much input, C) at least forces them to follow the rule of law, which is what's been lacking up to now. It would at least preclude the idiotic "daddy says no, mommy says yes" situations.

Basically the Tech Branch needs to start behaving more like the Patent Office if it aims to classify and regulate every facet of technical gun design, instead of making up ham-fisted judgments based on whimsy as it goes along. Ya'll should read up on the EP Armory/Ares dispute over 80% lowers in the Legal forum as a corollary to this SBR nonsense. The ATF is effectively holding that a block of plastic with no holes drilled is a semi-auto AR15 (which has two holes drilled), but not an M16 (which has three holes drilled). Further, that they're totally cool with an unlicensed business possessing thousands of illegally-manufactured 'firearms' for a few days so long as they are handed over for disposition --but only if customer records are surrendered as well.

TCB
 
Not that kind pictured there, but the angled forward "hand stops" are fine.
Also, with a build using either a barrel over 11.5" with an A2 rifle buffer tube the overall length will be greater than 26" which is long enough that a vertical forward grip is GTG. This is thanks to the Franklin XO-26; unfortunately there are a LOT of field agents who don't know about that ruling or are willfully ignoring it. That is why I use a AFG2 and sold off the Surefire M900A I was going to use.
 
Sam1911, 14.5" barreled rifles are common as non-SBR configurations if they have a permanently attached 1.5" muzzle device. I don't know whether or not the military M4 is configured, but I don't think it's technically an SBR.

I've said it in other threads (heck, I started a thread on this) but we really need to start pushing "compromise" back in our direction. Things like this and bump-fire stocks (which aren't used in crimes, to my knowledge) are proof that the NFA regulations on full-auto and SBRs are pointless. How easy it is to saw off a shotgun and have a working firearm means SBS laws are pointless. Suppressors are demonized in the media as only being used by BGs and assassins, but IRL they have hearing protection and reduction of sound pollution.

Of course, my plan wasn't to tackle SBR/SBS initially, but rather to go after re-opening the MG registry and deregulating suppressors.
 
Yeah, I know. Yes, civilian m-forgery builds need a special long flash hider pinned and welded on to make a "permanently" >16" barrel. No military M-4s don't have such a thing.

Again, since they are machine guns (according to the NFA) they can have any length barrel they want. Not technically an SBR, then, but if you took a military M-4 upper and dropped it onto your AR15 lower, presto---> SBR.
 
LOL! Bonus points if you leave the hand on! Maybe slap a wristwatch on it. :) That would get some notice at the local 3-gun match!
 
Not sure which direction this conversation is drifting, but I'm positively in agreement that we need to start pushing for some advances as well.

It's not that we haven't had any wins. CCW in most states with Shall-Issue in a majority, state laws regarding SBR's being rollled back, the Heller ruling - we haven't been doing that bad lately so I don't wish to sound like we have.

But the next time someone starts talking about "common sense" and "compromise" I think we should float removing suppressors as NFA items. It's only "common sense" to use a suppressor so as not to disrupt your neighbors with noise pollution or damage the hearing of bystanders. And SBR's... it's only "common sense" that they should be unrestricted. Handguns are far more concealable and they're largely unrestricted. Why should a rifle with a 12" barrel be more restricted than a Glock 19?

Maybe it is an uphill battle, but compromise requires both sides to give something in exchange for something they want, rather than one side pushing for everything and only getting half of it. So lets introduce some real compromise for a change.
 
"LOL! Bonus points if you leave the hand on! Maybe slap a wristwatch on it. That would get some notice at the local 3-gun match!"

No joke, on a forum a while back, there was some guy who'd ended up with an old prosthetic leg who was dead set on adapting it into a stock :D. As I recall, he wanted the rifle to be able stand freely on it, to boot (too many possible puns)

"Again, since they are machine guns (according to the NFA) they can have any length barrel they want. Not technically an SBR, then, but if you took a military M-4 upper and dropped it onto your AR15 lower, presto---> SBR."
I was under the impression each feature required a separate stamp. I.E., a 10" transferrable MAC 10 with a suppressor requires a total of three stamps (and 600$) to transfer on the form(s) that an individual would use (I think certain FFL/SOTs pay a reduced tax rate :confused:). The "three stamp," "trifecta," "triple-play" thing is a sort of perverse badge of honor (in 1934, such a beast would have required the equivalent of 10,000$ or so today in taxes :eek:). I imagine a full-auto 10" suppressed 2-bore would require 4 stamps (I don't know if destructive devices can have legally 'short' barrels), but who would try such a thing? :what:

TCB
 
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I don't think anyone pointed this out yet - for the sig or ak type pistol with the forearm brace you can not legally put a foregrip on it because it is a pistol, you can only do that with a SBR.
 
Nope. A removable silencer does require a separate stamp, but machine guns can have any barrel length you want.

Take a look at this: http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms...firearms-within-purview-national-firearms-act

Any machine pistol, submachine gun, assault rifle, automatic rifle, or belt-fed machine gun is classified as a "machine gun" regardless of barrel length.
There was something very interesting on that page: a Glock auto sear. Given that the registry was closed in 1986 and that the first Glock sold in the USA was supposedly in January of that year I am surprised there are any legally transferrable examples of a Glock auto sear in the hands of private individuals. I don't imagine Glock moved all that many of their (then) unusual plastic guns in the US market, much less full auto versions of them in their first few months in the USA. I know personally that I didn't see one in a shop until 1988 or so.
 
That page isn't limited to legal, transferrable items.
I made that comment because it specifically says "Rate of Transfer Tax $200" on the page with the pix. That led me to believe that ATF thinks there is at lest one of them out there that could be legally transferred.

One wonders how many of them ATF encounters in the USA that aren't legally transferrable?
 
Well, lawful ones made after '86 are transferrable between SOTs and government agencies, but that's not what most folks consider "transferrable."

I'd imagine that 99% (at least) of the Glock 18s and Glock 17 conversions are in the hands of SOT2s or -3s.
 
what's never discussed is that a barrel half the length has a severe impact on velocity, foot pounds of force, and effective range.
Really? Never dicussed? Must be dark under that rock.

It makes a rifle caliber gun act a lot more like a pistol carbine. The intent seems to be a close range high rate of fire weapon to spray and pray.
Maybe, maybe not.

Stock or not, what's the real purpose of the overall weapon? Extreme niche application that simply attracts a lot of interest in the 18-30 male....
Sexist argument.

who has money to spend.
I spend more than $200 per year on the ammo for the guns I plan on registering as SBR's when 5956 is signed into law this year. A one time payment of $200 is peanuts especially when I plan on enjoying my SBR's for another 20 years at least.

Ranb
 
I'm glad to see items come along that challenge the status quo with regard to the NFA.

I doubt getting rid of NFA would be an easy thing to do, but I have a solution to the regulations that is simple and probably would gain traction fairly easily. Keep things as they are now with one exception, which would be letting Class 3 dealers handle the paperwork/fees/issuing of tax stamps. These businesses are already highly regulated and are well versed in selling Class 3 items so there is no real need for any additional training or work. Everyone wins this way. We don't have to wait 6 to 9 months for an SBR/suppressor/etc. (if we can pass a background check to buy a gun that day, how is a Class 3 item any different?), the business and manufacturers will enjoy increased sales of these items, and the government will still get their $200 per stamp. Tax stamp revenues would likely increase significantly with the influx of new Class 3 buyers. I know quite a few people who would buy a suppressor or an SBR if it wasn't for the convoluted process we have now.
 
I used my SB15 during my long SBR wait. Hell I even strapped it to my arm a couple times to test the shooting mode :D

Speaking of "pushing the envelope", all the the big gun manufactures who want to sell compact handguns that are a few "import points" short of the law import them with disposable thermoplastic adjustable "target sights" to put them over the limit then install the steel fixed sights once they are in the US.

Same thing.

Mike
 
Clarification please:

barnbwt posted this Wiki definition in #30 - "Short-barreled rifle (SBR) is a legal designation in the United States, referring to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm with a barrel length of less than 16 inches (40.6 cm) or overall length of less than 26 inches (66.0 cm)."

If you have a rifle with a 16" barrel, but the overall length is less than 26" is it still classified as a short barrel rifle?

BTW, the current link for the TacCon 3MR Trigger: http://tacconusa.com/
 
If you have a rifle with a 16" barrel, but the overall length is less than 26" is it still classified as a short barrel rifle?

If it is "intended" to be shoulder fired and has an OAL less than 26" it is a SBR.

Short-barreled rifle (SBR) is a legal designation in the United States, referring to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm with a barrel length of less than 16 inches (40.6 cm) OR overall length of less than 26 inches (66.0 cm)."
 
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