Put your collective minds to work on this...

[Rifleman 173]

I just reviewed a couple of YouTube videos on the Chinese Army. It is very much apparent that the Chinese have started cloning everything that our military does and have available to it. They have their own version of the MREs. Many of their uniforms look just like our uniforms in color scheme and design. What I am very curious about is their adapting of a rifle that looks a whole like our Bushmaster M-17 bullpup. Even their red dot scopes, mounted on their version of the M-17, look a lot like the Aimpoints and ACOGs our troops are presently using overseas. So why did they go with design so much like our Bushmaster M-17? Is there something over here that we are missing within our own shooting circles as far as the M-17 is concerned?

 

[SSN Vet]

China is the land of the knock off....

can you honestly name one thing that was invented there (in the last century that is)

 

[4Low]

Why bother re-inventing the wheel when someone has already done it for you? The R&D dollars China saved by going with an already proven design will most likely be spent on some other needed equipment or used to line the pockets of certain gov't employees.

 

[younganddumb]

I have to give them credit and all but that is a littl efish to me kinda currious to know why they are gearing up like us i think they would stick with russia and all but why the change all of a sudden?

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Maybe there's something going on and they're planning against us...

You'll be less likely to shoot someone in combat that looks just like you.

 

[cracked butt]

Why bother re-inventing the wheel when someone has already done it for you? The R&D dollars China saved by going with an already proven design will most likely be spent on some other needed equipment or used to line the pockets of certain gov't employees.

Their system seems to work. For a couple hundred thousand $$s in campaign contributions to a certain ex-President, they were able to get top-of-the-line W-88 warhead technology that the US spent billions on developing and testing.

 

[Hoppy590]

They have their own version of the MREs.

almost every developed nation on earth has its own MRE's

whole like our Bushmaster M-17 bullpup

our? did the US adopt the M17 when i wasnt looking? matter of fact the M-17 isnt even "ours" it was originally designed by an Australian firm Armtech Ltd. i believe.

many nations developed bull pups.

i assume your speaking of the QBZ-95? in which case its a short stroke piston weapon, so its basicaly a AR-18, much like the the M-17... and much like a few dozen other nations arms.

hmmm color scheme in military uniforms, let me guess , green, brown and tan?!

nationalism. making people look paranoid since... for ever.

 

[woof]

McDonald's has always put a lot of marketing research into locations for new stores. The story is, that when Dave Thomas was getting started with Wendy's, he would just locate across the street wherever a new McDonald's went up piggy backing on their R&D which was a sign of respect. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

 

[Titan6]

almost every developed nation on earth has its own MRE's

Poor things...

I would not worry about all that. As everyone knows the gear does not make the man or as in this case the Army. You need only look at the German Army of WWII as a perfect example.

Early in the war the Germans had vastly superior front line leaders and yet inferior equipment and inadequate logisitics and they stomped just about everybody. By the second half of the war they had used up their best leaders and yet had some of the best tanks and planes (even jets) of the war. Without proper leadership and an army more demoralized as time went on they got smoked just about everywhere.

You can replicate equipment (although China production standards are still a little low for most things) but it takes time to build a well trained, well led Army.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the fact that they have the fastest growing military budget in the world and they are not even fighting a war. If it continues to grow at it's current rate it will eclipse the US in about six years and the Chinese don't even have a Navy to speak of.

 

[AnaxImperator]

Can you honestly name one thing that was invented there (in the last century that is)

While they didn't invent the modern submachinegun or semiauto handgun, the Chicoms have come up with some unique firearms in the last century. And neither did we invent the famous rifles used in the first part of the 20th century; the Krag was designed by a couple of Norwegians, the Springfield 1903 is a license-built Mauser, and our prized M249 & M240B are Belgian creations.

The Norinco Type-79 is one of, if not the, only gas-operated SMGs used on a wide scale, and is a totally homogenous design. I'd love to get my hands on one of these, which fire the hot little 7.62x25 at 500rpm. Not exactly a zip-gun, but from my own experiences I'd prefer a slower rate-of-fire in a subgun.



From what I've read on the in-tern-et, Norinco possibly developed the helical magazine for the Chang Feng SMG before Calico did, which would probably be the first case of someone "borrowing" an idea from the Chicoms.



And China's newest homegrown SMG is the JS Type-05. While FN was developing the 5.7x28mm cartridge for their P90, Jiang She was working on their own PDW, the 5.8x21mm Type-05. Maybe JS got their design-cues from FN, maybe not.



And a really interesting piece of equipment the Chicoms turned out for wet-work are the Type-64 & 67 intergrally silenced pistols, which fire a unique 7.65x17mm round, and are convertable from semiauto to a manual single-shot mag-fed assassin's tool.



And lastly, here's a Chicom handgun which features something that I've never seen or heard of on a Western design; the Norinco 77B, exhibiting it's one-finger slide-cycling mechanisim. Neato.
Now, whether or not one would need to do a massive amount of finger-curls to successfully cycle the slide is unknown, but it definitely is an original design.

Images from world.guns.ru.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

and our prized M249 & M240B are Belgian creations.

Based oh-so heavily on the BAR of American John Moses Browning.

 

[dagger dog]

The developement of the self cocking mechanism for semi auto slides goes back to the 1920's or before, and a German Co. Lignose and their Model
2A called the einhand (german for one hand). It was a .25 ACP or in the European 6.35mm , a small pocket pistol capable of stripping a round from the magazine and firing the pistol with one hand. Just about the same as the picture of the Chinese version, with the front of the trigger guard.

 

[Domino]

Well the Chinese have copied a ton of stuff but it seems to me that most of thier small arms in current military use are very much home grown. The stuff they imitate is the stuff they try to sell back to us. I don't think the QZB-95 is really based on the M17s at all. While the gas systems may both be AR-18 knockoffs that is probably where the similarities cease. The QZB-95 seems much more refined and seems to have more polymer than the M17s. It actually reminds me more of the Israeli Tavor than the M17s.

 

[ColinthePilot]

They developed one or two original fighter planes, but only after a lot of trial and error engineering and a few total flops. The planes are still barely 50's/60's technology and present little threat to anything but EP-3's, and then only by ramming. They've proven that their planes are effective kamikaze missiles.

 

[esmith]

I have to give them credit and all but that is a littl efish to me kinda currious to know why they are gearing up like us i think they would stick with russia and all but why the change all of a sudden?

Periods................Periods.................

Why bother re-inventing the wheel when someone has already done it for you? The R&D dollars China saved by going with an already proven design will most likely be spent on some other needed equipment or used to line the pockets of certain gov't employees.

Just to let it be known here, very few rifles are totally original. The AR 15 family along with the AK 47's bear a strong resemblance to the STG 44. It is rare to find a gun that works and looks totally different from what we have today.

 

[RobTzu]

Chinese R and D stands for replicate and duplicate. Just like Japan did in the 60s and 70s. They will catch on soon enough, just like Japan did.

 

[jerkface11]

The one handed pistol cocking thing was popular in Spain for a while.

 

[Abndoc]

Chinese R and D stands for replicate and duplicate.

Do you really think it will stay this way?

I heard somewhere that 70% of the worlds manufacturing is now located in China. Does anyone remember what allowed us to be the arsenal of democracy in WWII?

 

[Rifleman 173]

Here's the thing.... For some reason the Chinese have gone to using a lot of bullpup rifles in their new and improved military forces. What are they seeing in the bullpup that we're NOT seeing? Sure, they will copy, replicate and clone stuff in a heartbeat but why did they SPECIFICALLY go with bullpups??? Most of us over here prefer the AR-15/M-4 rifles for their ergonomics. We think that they're short enough to meet our needs but accurate enough to do the job. If they're so big on duplicating things, why not duplicate our AR-15s and M-4s??? Something isn't right over there in their copying unless they've sensed something better in the bullpups. Has anybody in this forum handled their bullpups or shot them? Are their bullpups better or worse than ours? How is the accuracy of their bullpups?

 

[cracked butt]

Just a WASG, but maybe there is something about their bullpup design that is cheaper, uses fewer parts, or uses a little less materials than our M4 rifles?
For example: lets say that each rifle saves 1/2 lb of steel or $10 worth of parts, then take that figure and multiply it by 100 million units. Like I said, its just my guess.

 

[Z-Michigan]

And to add that China developed its own modern military round, the 5.8mm, itself, rather than just copying a Soviet (5.45) or US (5.56mm) cartridge. And the 5.8 appears to be somewhat superior to both.

I doubt their bullpups have any special advantages. All bullpups give you a longer barrel in a shorter package. Looks great on paper; not always so great in real use.

 

[Hoppy590]

What are they seeing in the bullpup that we're NOT seeing?

why are you paranoid about bull pups? the Brits, French, Austrians, Irish, Australians, and dozens of other countrys moved to bull pups in the 70's and 80's

f they're so big on duplicating things, why not duplicate our AR-15s and M-4s???

theyre not big on duplicating things, they are big on making money. if they can make money by cheaply copying things, they will. if we stop buying their knock off products, they will stop making them. the Chinese have a decent history of independent firearms developement. the type 63, the type 81, QBZ-03, and more.

in the past the chinese probibly stuck with the AK and simple weapons because.... THEY ARE CHEAP AND SIMPLE TO PRODUCE! as Chinas growth has sky rocketed they now have the money, and more importantly the machinery to produce more modern arms, cheaply and quickly

Does anyone remember what allowed us to be the arsenal of democracy in WWII?

A work force with out a sense of entitlement, occupations that didnt needlessly require college degrees, pride in our work, entirely domestic product (from ore to steel to tank). Company's who's end goal was not the cheapest product. ( though certainly a concern)

Americans dont want to work hard for a living, we want to get rich quick and buy all the expensive stuff we want. every year the greatest transfer of wealth in history occurs. America sends more money overseas for oil and products than has ever happened in the world

Based oh-so heavily on the BAR of American John Moses Browning.

Uh, in the sense that... um they are both rifles? else wise i dont really see much commonality

 

[SaMx]

I hope the trigger guard/cocking handle on that pistol isn't rigidly attached to the slide D:

 

[PercyShelley]

our? did the US adopt the M17 when i wasnt looking? matter of fact the M-17 isnt even "ours" it was originally designed by an Australian firm Armtech Ltd. i believe.

Hoppy 590 nails it! The M17s was based on an Australian design that, IIRC, lost out in trials to the Stery AUG during the search for a replacement for the FAL.

I've looked at the guts; it's a lot like an AR-18 on the inside, but the extruded aluminum receiver is an interesting touch, as is the charging handle. Perhaps some of our Canadian members could chime in, but written descriptions of the QBZ-95/97 make it sound like it has the Type 81's combination of an AK-esque bolt and an SKS-esque gas system.

many nations developed bull pups.

Got that right. Bullpup designs may now outnumber conventionals.

nationalism. making people look paranoid since... for ever.

Uh, in the sense that... um they are both rifles? else wise i dont really see much commonality

The M240's locking mechanism has been described by no less than Ian V. Hogg as a BAR's turned upside-down and fed with a belt. It seems to have inherited both the enviable reliability and excessive weight of that system. The 249 uses a rotating bolt that's vaguely like an AK's.

 

[Hoppy590]

The M240's locking mechanism has been described by no less than Ian V. Hogg as a BAR's turned upside-down and fed with a belt. It seems to have inherited both the enviable reliability and excessive weight of that system. The 249 uses a rotating bolt that's vaguely like an AK's.

hmmm

* hoppy tilts his head upside down while looking at the schematics screen


damn, feel like a donkey now