Put your collective minds to work on this...

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China is the land of the knock off....

can you honestly name one thing that was invented there (in the last century that is)
the rounds that are used in that bullpup.

Chinese R and D stands for replicate and duplicate. Just like Japan did in the 60s and 70s. They will catch on soon enough, just like Japan did.

what is this catching on?

Here's the thing.... For some reason the Chinese have gone to using a lot of bullpup rifles in their new and improved military forces. What are they seeing in the bullpup that we're NOT seeing?

there was an article in guns and ammo combat arms edition like 4 years ago about all the "new" chinese guns, many of them being bullpups and smgs. at least one reason the article cited that they favor them is because all chinese are right handed, no issues with ejection or uniformity of use.

theyre not big on duplicating things, they are big on making money. if they can make money by cheaply copying things, they will. if we stop buying their knock off products, they will stop making them. the Chinese have a decent history of independent firearms developement. the type 63, the type 81, QBZ-03, and more.

i'd like to add that they also only care about SAVING money and on that note our great nation could take a cue, saving energy is cheaper than buying more energy.
 
I appreciate all the input. I think I finally figured out what they're up to with their bullpups. Based on everything that you've all said. I have a feeling that the Chinese have adopted the bullpup rifles not because of manufacturing ease, reduced cost factors or because they are more practical inside of vehicles. I seriously think that the Chinese military forces have adopted the bullpup design because it is a more compact rifle for urban/built-up area/MOUNT combat situations. I also think that bullpup actions would be better used in jungle warfare too than conventional or longer rifles. So I think that the Chinese military has now come to the realization that if they get into a war in a jungle, woodlands, vehicle to vehicle or in an urban combat situation that their bullpup rifles would be better and more maneuverable for the troops. What this SEEMS to indicate is that the Chinese aren't interested in long distance shooting or combat over like desert terrain, grasslands or prairie lands. They're looking for firearms that better fit their terrain, in general, than anything else. Interesting.
 
The chinese standard caliber is 5.8x 42mm so when they kill our men they can use our 5.56 ammo in their guns. and they stole half a F16 and the AEGIS missle defense system.
 
Some notes on Chinese small arms:
following ideological disagreement with USSR during early 1960s, Chinese top heads apparently decided that copies of foreign guns are good only for foreign buyers. Therefore most, if not all MILITARY small arms that were designed in PRC since that time are NOT copies, although often represent amalgamation of several foreign designs.

Today they copy everything - from Colt woodsman to 1911 to SIG-sauers and CZ's and Walthers, Winchester shotguns, M16's and M4's etc etc. But it is for export only!
As for military, they try to design something indigenous, and that's probably why they, for example, had to adopt at least three different successive models of .50 cal HMGs within 12-years timeframe (1977 to 1989)
Same applies to rifles - apparently, someone is not that entirely happy with their Type 95 bullpup, as they started to manufacture and issue in limited numbers the conventionally layed-out Type 03 rifle in same 5.8mm
 
"Quote: Does anyone remember what allowed us to be the arsenal of democracy in WWII?"

A work force with out a sense of entitlement, occupations that didnt needlessly require college degrees, pride in our work, entirely domestic product (from ore to steel to tank). Company's who's end goal was not the cheapest product. ( though certainly a concern)

Bingo. If you guys want to worry about something, worry about the fact that while us Americans are sitting around waiting for our welfare checks, every Chinese citizen over the age of 8 is waking up at 4 AM and scrambling to improve his/her lot and that of his/her family.

The Chinese aren't going to need any guns to take over the world. They've co-opted the "American way" -- that we discarded -- and they're running with it.
 
I appreciate all the input. I think I finally figured out what they're up to with their bullpups. Based on everything that you've all said. I have a feeling that the Chinese have adopted the bullpup rifles not because of manufacturing ease, reduced cost factors or because they are more practical inside of vehicles. I seriously think that the Chinese military forces have adopted the bullpup design because it is a more compact rifle for urban/built-up area/MOUNT combat situations. I also think that bullpup actions would be better used in jungle warfare too than conventional or longer rifles. So I think that the Chinese military has now come to the realization that if they get into a war in a jungle, woodlands, vehicle to vehicle or in an urban combat situation that their bullpup rifles would be better and more maneuverable for the troops. What this SEEMS to indicate is that the Chinese aren't interested in long distance shooting or combat over like desert terrain, grasslands or prairie lands. They're looking for firearms that better fit their terrain, in general, than anything else. Interesting.
another reason can simply be that they look good on paper. the chinese need things to look good on paper, i can only say this in a sort of cultural understanding type thing.

Bingo. If you guys want to worry about something, worry about the fact that while us Americans are sitting around waiting for our welfare checks, every Chinese citizen over the age of 8 is waking up at 4 AM and scrambling to improve his/her lot and that of his/her family.

The Chinese aren't going to need any guns to take over the world. They've co-opted the "American way" -- that we discarded -- and they're running with it.

i'm not sure if this is diverting the thread as this may be the heart of the matter, but to contribute a few points.

i don't know that america has lost the productive ways of the past. certainly the work culture has left some things to be desired, certainly complacency is a concern but let me propose these:

in the light of development a more advanced nation must continue to produce but those products produced are not always going to remain labor based or even material based. america is still producing, we produce technology, services, we produce entire markets for goodness sake.

think of GB, how have they managed to stay an economic power with so little people, so little natural resources, etc? they stay on top by owning companies and markets, even more so, they do it internationally.

why is dubai a money fountain? oil is a factor but they're also the largest purveyers of trades services and throughways in the international community.

look at japan, their bread and butter isn't weaving of cloth or mining of ores (although they do smelt it). they have technology markets and production, they have "final product" productions.

the united states isn't going to become number one or stay number one by going back to weaving cloth, and bending all our own pipes, or forging all our own metal forms necessarily. at some point it's just economically sound to allow specializations that create more efficiencies and larger margins for profit, development etc.

what i do think is the problem is that in ORDER to do any of the above mentioned "developmental" pathways america has to be MUCH MORE serious about education and creating human capital. afterall that's the ONE RESOURCE that all these subsequent products and productions will come from. china's got a lot of people. they're not all stupid and by sheer numbers they can probably produce more educated people than us in the upcoming years. but we have some legacy items that cannot be purchased by anything but time. those legacy items are our industries and infrastructures related to education. AND THE FOREIGNERS ARE USING THEM! they can't get what we have at home so they come here! but WHY AREN'T WE USING OUR OWN STUFF???? if we keep giving it away and NOT capitalizing on it ourselves, we're in for some **** in the future.

what they learn in american schools to take home is worth so much more than their foreign student fees. why don't we take our own human capital development more seriously? i'm not in any way saying that foreign students are the threat, or that that's a national security issue, it's not. those who want education are going to get it. the national security issue is us not taking education and human capital development as seriously as "they" do.
 
The chinese standard caliber is 5.8x 42mm so when they kill our men they can use our 5.56 ammo in their guns. and they stole half a F16 and the AEGIS missle defense system.

Well, how nice of you for the compliment :barf:

I really doubt that the 5.56 would function in the Chinese rifles, and if it did, there is know way it would be remotely accurate. Plus, do you think the PRC would want to go to war with it's role model and largest customer. Very few things anymore are a completely new system, and it's obvious that smart people use what works. The newest line of combat rifles all borrow designs from the AK, M-16, and HK guns. Diversity is a good thing in almost every circumstance.

Those damn Europeans, stealing the idea of gunpowder :neener:

Politics aside, the Chinese have come up with some very good home-spun weapons. The Chinese have always been wary of outside influence's for good reason. They shunned Russian Communist weapons and have come up with possibly the best of the east and the west. They are probably not the most accurate, but I imagine there quite serviceable. Bullpups are pretty popular outside of the US for obvious reasons, they are short, handy, and offer a long barrel in a package maybe 26'' in length. They do have their drawbacks, and they a fine for the environments the Chinese may encounter as others have noted.

HB
 
RobTzu said:
Chinese R and D stands for replicate and duplicate.

Abndoc said:
Do you really think it will stay this way?

No, see the Japan thing. If that is too complex, then please refrain from posting on the subject.

I heard somewhere that 70% of the worlds manufacturing is now located in China. Does anyone remember what allowed us to be the arsenal of democracy in WWII?
Well you heard wrong for one thing. Secondly, the amount of production is not a function of R&D, so the two are apples and oranges.
 
The chinese standard caliber is 5.8x 42mm so when they kill our men they can use our 5.56 ammo in their guns. and they stole half a F16 and the AEGIS missle defense system.

Is it just me or does the gun culture breed more people that are willing to pickup hearsay and conjecture, not fact check it and then spew that false "knowledge" to everyone they know?

Or does everyone act that way?

Oh, wait, most liberals act like that too so I guess it is a widespread problem.
 
Bullpups are more user-friendly to Oriental soldiers (who tend to be of smaller stature than US troops) than designs that are designed for Americans or Europeans.The South Koreans were said to favor our M1 carbines over the M1Garand.The rifle was simply too large for them.Plus there are many women in the Chinese army,who also tend to be diminutive by our standards.
 
Just looking at Mr. Popenker's figures, it appears that 5.56x45 wouldn't even chamber in a 5.8 weapon. The shoulder of the case is much to far forward; the bolt should not close.

And yet similar rumors are spread about the supposed interchangeability of 5.45/5.56, .30-06/7.92x57, and a whole host of other combinations that geometry alone dictates are nonsense.
 
And yet similar rumors are spread about the supposed interchangeability of 5.45/5.56, .30-06/7.92x57, and a whole host of other combinations that geometry alone dictates are nonsense.

i had an hour long debate with a Marine, yes a US Marine. he insisted the AK (7.62x39) could chamber and fire the US 5.56X45

theres so many.
 
i had an hour long debate with a Marine, yes a US Marine. he insisted the AK (7.62x39) could chamber and fire the US 5.56X45

theres so many.

Well, it may at least be possible for a 5.56x45mm round to *fit* in a 7.62x39 chamber...


(checks)

How about that? Learn something new every day.

It's not remotely physically possible.
 
If you want to worry about something, worry about the fact that they have the fastest growing military budget in the world and they are not even fighting a war. If it continues to grow at it's current rate it will eclipse the US in about six years and the Chinese don't even have a Navy to speak of.
I beg to differ. See link below to IBD Editorial from 5/22/08 titled "China: Let the War Games Begin".

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=294621907182546&secure=340

Something to think about....

Poper
 
the Springfield 1903 is a license-built Mauser

i believe that the us used a mauser patton for it which was leter taken to court and the us was found in breach of a patton

Well, it may at least be possible for a 5.56x45mm round to *fit* in a 7.62x39 chamber...


(checks)

How about that? Learn something new every day.

It's not remotely physically possible.

i believe it was on here a guy chambers a 5.56 round in his sks and it did fire the casing was majorley deformed but it did fire




i have a great respect for the chinease army didicated people with good guns i wouldnt screw with em
 
i believe it was on here a guy chambers a 5.56 round in his sks and it did fire the casing was majorley deformed but it did fire

How, by mashing on the charging handle? The body is too long, it gets caught in the bottleneck, and the body diameter is significantly smaller; how would the extractor engage?

Try it yourself with a round and your fingers. It isn't going in there.

It is kinda weird that the OAL on both of those cartridges is so similar though.
 
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