[Q] resolving problmer with seller on Gunbroker

[platform]

I saw a post here in the handgun buy/sell section
It refered to the gunbroker item
I checked the seller feedback here and on gunbroker and it was positive.


I won the item.
However, by mistake overpaid to the seller by 100 bucks.

I received the item, however not the 100 bucks refund
(my money order was cashed and cleared in middle of september)

Seller now is not responding (and he also promised both magazine, but I got only one). I left both email and voice messages.


I have never had to submit a complaint on gunbroker, and from their
screens I can not simply see how to do it. They have the buyer protection,
but I cannot see how to apply for it -- instead they are only sending me to
the screen where I can request seller information (which I already did... and
that did not help)


So what are the ways forward now? Is there a way to use gunbroker where
I can get my 100 bucks back (I understand that the second magazine I will
not be able to get).

 

[Hokkmike]

Go to THEIR forum and ask. I am sure that somebody will give you an answer. It is not so civil as here, but there are a lot of nice guys there!

 

[mp510]

It sounds to me like you sent him an unsolicited gift, which he has no obligation to return.

GIFT - A voluntary transfer of property from one person or entity to another made without charge or consideration.

Nobody compelled you to buy an overvalued money order, or write an overvalued check. You could have gotten a replacement instrument before sending it, but you chose not to. It's rightfully his money now, you sent it to him, unsolicited. It sounds like you knew that the MO was $100 over, and you sent it anyways. How is your seller supposed toknow you weren't "being generous"?

As the donor (giver), you can't revoke an already given gift. Call the seller, on the telephone, and have a NICE conversation with him. Maybe he'll be willing to give you your money back.

 

[Bacchus]

Wait a minute--I have to disagree with the above post. The OP made a mistake and has repeatedly asked for his money back--in addition to not receiving what was promised in the auction?

That's not a gift. Sounds like the seller didn't keep up his end of the bargain. I'd go to the forums as others have suggested and keep trying to get your money back.

 

[Monkeybear]

made without charge or consideration.

What he gave was not a gift. There was a consideration; the gun he bought. It was payment.

due return to for services rendered or property delivered

You overpaid. Obviously you should get your money back as well as your magazine, however as they say "possession is 9/10 of the law".

I recently had a similar problem. I sent a firearm to a gentleman in another state. I was a little short on the shipping and he agreed to pay me back. He received the gun and I have not heard from him since.

 

[platform]

Nobody compelled you to buy an overvalued money order, or write an overvalued check. You could have gotten a replacement instrument before sending it, but you chose not to. It's rightfully his money now, you sent it to him, unsolicited. It sounds like you knew that the MO was $100 over, and you sent it anyways. How is your seller supposed toknow you weren't "being generous"?

I did not know it was over by 100 untill I reviewed the copy of the money order.
So I could not have gotten a replacement instrument.

I could have canceled my MO. However seller wanted to receive money asap,
as he was going on vacation and needed money before than.
I sent it next day (less than 24 hours after I won the auction).


And if I would have canceled it
it would have taken much longer for the whole transaction to take place --
and I would be doing a disservice to the seller (who, I thought, was an honest person). Cancelation of moneygram money orders can take out to 30 days.

Looking back, I should have canceled the MO. And issue a new one,
it would have taken longer. But again I thought that would be
dishonest on my side (as I promised to pay ASAP).

At the time I also offered to him that could pay by paypal - if he needs
the money even quicker then MO vai usps mail. But, since
it would cost him 3% commission (as I was not going to pay it) -- he said
MO was ok

I imagine now that If I would pay with paypal and overpaid by 100 bucks,
I would be even in worse situation -- because if I would try to resolve
the dispute via paypal -- would have gotten my account closed (as I would have to show them emails what I was paying for)


I have a copy of the MO. And the seller told me that it was cashed and clearled.


I told him to send the refund check together with the gun. The gun came in
sept 21st, I got it from my FFL sept 28th. That's when I realized
that he has no intention of sending me anything back (as neither second mag,
nor the money where in there).

I did not mind waiting longer, but I am not getting anywhere with him.

I think the terms of the transactions are clear (and gunbroker has
a record of how much the item was, what was the description/etc).
Since there is no other document exists that would establish
that I agreed to pay 100 more than the winning bid (I used 'Buy Now' option)
-- I do think it can be considered an unsolicited gift.



I am also now not sure if I submit a negative feedback against the seller,
he will probably submit a negative feedback in retaliation against me --
and gunbroker will not do anything about it....


So far I feel very uneasy with the buyer protection service that gunbroker
has to offer (now that I am trying to use it)

a) they said to ask for refund from your credit card company or paypal
(I have not used either -- but I imaging that If I would, ask paypal for
a refund on the gun -- they would have closed my account. Gunbroker
knows that -- but still ask their participant to dispute things like that with paypal
-- which I think is not fair).


b) they have a 100 dollars deductible



Finally, I also now have an account with GearPay -- so that hopefully this service will take off and provide better protection then Gunbroker or paypal.

 

[mp510]

(Excerpt) From Cooper v. Ebert; Record Number 2816-04-4; Virginia Court of Appeals

Both parties’ exhibits showed that there were months that Ebert paid more
than $800 to Cooper and months he paid less than $800 to Cooper, with variations as high as
$2,344 (including third-party payments), and as low as $273. All of the overpayments were
made from August 1998 through May 2001, and all of the underpayments were made from June
2001 to March 2004. Cooper contends that the overpayments are gifts, which cannot be counted
against extended months of underpayments of the support obligation. We agree.

This case-exerpt from Virginia lays out clearly the logic that I was attempting to convey. The court found that the money in excess of the contractual $800 that Ebert paid some months was a gift, and could not be considered towards a future month, in which he failed to meet his contractual $800 per month support obligation. Under that logic, the OP sent the seller $X+$100 for the gun, despite the fact that the gun only cost $X. That overpayment is not in consideration of anything.

The OP had the oppertunity to return or cash-in the money order before sending it and he could have bought a replacement and avoided this whole mess. When you buy a monmey order it is for one specific dollar value, that's how they're sold. It's not like an impromptu handing of a $20 bill at the grocer to pay for $7.99 worth of food, and there is an expectation to get change. Customarily, when a money order is sent particularly for an item bought by mail, that's the amount your giving a person, epecially since the buyer is delibrately buying the money order for some specific dollar value, which in this case ended up being contract value ($X) plus $100.

 

[mp510]

I did not know it was over by 100 untill I reviewed the copy of the money order.
So I could not have gotten a replacement instrument.

Looking back, I should have canceled the MO. And issue a new one,
it would have taken longer. But again I thought that would be
dishonest on my side (as I promised to pay ASAP).

Whenever I have bought money orders , the clerk always asks they buyer to review the instrument to make sure that it's correct- what they wanted. In fact, one time I did screw up, and had to have a money order reissued. It was a USPS Money Order, and they cancelled the original, and had a new, correct one within two minutes.

In the future look over the information on the money order BEFORE filling it out even. Then you can make it payable to yourself, and cash it in very easily, and only end up paying like a $1 extra in the end.

 

[Gordon Fink]

At least you got your gun, but I think it would only be right for the seller to return the overpayment. Given the legal precedent others have cited, I’m not sure how effective the official channels will be at getting your money back.

I just came through my own case of would-be GunBroker fraud. Three months after my payment, the seller still hadn’t shipped my rifle, and he had stopped responding to my e-mails and letters. GunBroker’s automated resolution system was similarly ineffective. A complaint to the Illinois Attorney General’s office finally put the rifle into my hands earlier this week.

~G. Fink

 

[Colt]

People make mistakes.

If the buyer has any integrity, he'll refund your money and send the second magazine.

If he doesn't do so, leave negative feedback. If he cheated you, he'll cheat someone else.

 

[musher]

I agree with Colt. The issue of whether he can legally keep the money isn't the point.

There's legal and then there's right.

He agreed to sell you the gun for a given price. If he has any integrity he'll refund the money posthaste. For my part, I wouldn't do business with someone I knew had taken advantage of a mistake on someone's part like this.

If you don't resolve it, let us know who it was so I can avoid them in the future.

 

[platform]

thank you for all the comments/suggestions.

I will follow up on this thread with the results, and I will ask the moderator
before I will post any names/IDs, and I will likely enter negative feedback on the gunbroker (but again I am afraid he will enter one against me -- and gunbroker will not do anything about it....)

 

[AntiqueCollector]

I don't think you have a legal leg to stand on with the overpayment of $100, but if he did not include something that was supposed to be sent, you do have a case on that...

Regarding retaliatory feedback from the seller: don't worry, I try to always read the negatives from someone I'm dealing with if they have them, so if it seems like it's retaliatory and not legitimate, I ignore the negatives as not counting...I suspect many check any negatives like that...

 

[CNYCacher]

Yesterday at Walmart I bought something that cost $14.85 I handed the cashier a $20 bill. Instead of giving me change, he said "Thanks for the gift." I was going to argue with him but he pointed to his "mp40 Law School Graduate" T-shirt so I just gave up.

Since you can't get change anymore, I am off to the bank to get rolls of quarters, dimes, nickels and pennies. Actually, I will go just as soon as I draw up a legally-binding contract outlining the terms of the exchange I want to make with the bank teller. The last thing I want is for her to say "Why would I give you rolls of coins? By the way, thanks for the hundred bucks you just gave me."

 

[SMMAssociates]

platform:

Could the guy still be on vacation or wherever?

Regards,

 

[platform]

platform:

Could the guy still be on vacation or wherever?

Regards,

May be on the new vacation,

as the one he was in,
he came back from (last two emails I have from him are on the
weekend of Sept 15th saying that he will get me shipping tracking
number on the package on Monday 9/17-- I never got that either,
but the thing came on 21st, so I did not complain).

After vacation,
he replied, saying that he got my MO late (sept 11th), and that he had someone
depositing it, and waiting till it got cleared (because he was away)

(even though a lady at the MO customer support told me that it was
cashed on August 27th) -- but at the end I did not care: he acknowledged
that MO was received and it had been shipped --- that's all I needed to know.

So I did not request the copy of the signed MO from moneygram (to see exactly
when it was cashed)

I have no problem waiting for the refund and a magazine (although I hoped it would come at least at the same time as a gun)


I just need to know he is aware what
I am missing. And he is just not responding. I sent an email
on Sept 28th (last Friday when I got the gun from my FFL), asking him to at least aknowldge that the refund and the mag were missing.

No reply either. So today I started the process of complaint filing and just was surprised at how little support gunbroker was providing -- that's why I posted here (as gunbroker was only redirecting to the place where I can get his contact info).

The guy when came back from vacation seemed to be a resonsable guy
(he even said 'that he is out to ripp anybody off')

I just do not understand why he would want to deal with bad feedback/complaints mess, if he already sent me the gun -- the most expensive part of the transaction
(and it was not some crazy cheap price for the 'Buy Now' of that model).

If he did not have the 100 bucks for the refund, he could just tell me to wait -- and I would (I told him I have no problem waiting for a couple of weeks more)
If he did not have the magazine, then Ok may be I would have asked
for a little compensation for a missing mag (something reasonable)

It is strange... may be something happened to him emergency or a some other thing... But the whole buy happened August 23rd, now it is October 3d and do not have all pieces of the transaction.

And this whole thing about the item being a 'gun' makes it (for me) uneasy
to file any complaint with the moneygram. I understand that those things
are legal and I am within my right to purchase guns with moneyorders (but I just
hate to worry about if my private transactions info getting exposed). That's why I was hoping that gunbroker would be a bit more sensitive then recommending people filling complaint with paypal or creditcard companies as the first stop (thank God I did not have go through that).

I think GearPay would be an excellent addon to gunbroker -- so the disputes can be resolved without going outside of those two places....

 

[tydephan]

Do you have a phone number for him? If so, ring him day and night.

I would email him and tell him that you are not satisfied with the transaction. You were promised two magazines and only received one. And remind him he agreed to send the refund back to you.

Tell him you are considering listing details of the transaction at every major gun forum on the internet to warn people not to do business with him, including THR's feedback forum: http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=24

That's one route. I typically abhor threats, but I've seen that route resolve a lot of problems.

Needless to say, you pulled a boner by sending more money than necessary, but while legal precedents have been cited regarding this issue, the RIGHT thing to do is for him to return it.

Either way, you need to figure out a way to open a line of communication, whether it be calling him, emailing with notification of the above idea, or calling his local sheriff's department (a bit drastic at this point, I think.)

I would say the guy is probably embarrassed that he doesn't have the money to repay you right now and has decided to not communicate. But that's blind conjecture.

Don't get caught up in the negative feedback stuff on Gunbroker.

Good luck.

 

[SMMAssociates]

I've somehow managed to avoid all of these sites, except PayPal.... However, I did find out that my gun dealer is selling on Gunbroker.... Guess that's a fair endorsement. Careful doesn't begin to describe them.

No idea what's doing here - I expect the $100 is gone, though, at this point. Or he's just ashamed to say he hasn't got it. If the latter, who knows.

I bought a magazine from a "friend", across the state, and it never showed up. Turned out he'd bagged it for shipment, and tossed it in the car. His wife moved it into the trunk for some reason, and that's where it was when I mentioned that my check had cleared, but no sign of the mag after about six more days than even Snail Mail usually managed to get stuff to me. Non-problem at that point....

Hope this works out!

Regards,

 

[Snowdiver]

I would get his phone number as stated above, be nice in your conversation. Be relentless until you get what you want. I did this and FINALLY the money was sent. It took a few months and I drove him and his family crazy and they sent me a money order. I never threatened, but I did call at all hours to chit chat.

 

[platform]

Could not reach seller on any of the phone numbers. Could not reach via email.

I now submitted negative feedback on this guy on
THR and gunbroker

See

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3818880#post3818880



http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3818882#post3818882




Submitted a Fraud report on Gun broker for the missing 100 bucks and the magazine. Got the following reply (took 16 days to receive a reply on my Fraud report from Gunbroker):

10/19/2007 12:54:38 PM
GBSupport1015 You can go ahead and leave feedback for this item. Our fraud protection does not cover payment mistakes.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The following are specifically not covered:
Transactions paid for using cash or any payment method in which there is no proof of payment.

Barter or trade transactions in which you traded merchandise with the seller in lieu of monetary payment.

Items that have been lost or damaged in shipping. You must deal with the carrier for lost or damaged items.

Items that have been lost or damaged by any third party such as a transfer dealer.

Items that you pick up in person or are delivered by the seller to you in person.

Items that are not won by you as per the terms this site's User Agreement. This includes 'side deals' in which you did not meet the reserve price or were the 2nd bidder after the first bidder backed out of the deal. You must be the winning bidder on the item to be covered.

Payment mistakes, such as overpaying the seller.

Differences in opinion over the condition of the item.

Buyer's remorse.

Transactions in which the seller offered a refund and you refused the refund or refused to return the item to the seller for the refund.

 

[45crittergitter]

My $0.02:

There are some great guys on gunbroker. Of course, there are also some other types. My experience has been that gunbroker will not go to bat for you, as they do not actually enforce their own rules.

 

[platform]

There are some great guys on gunbroker. Of course, there are also some other types. My experience has been that gunbroker will not go to bat for you, as they do not actually enforce their own rules.

Yes this is my experience as well -- Gun broker will not do much to do the 'right thing' for a guy who got screwed at their auction.... but I guess just like 'ebay' they are enjoing the monopoly on this stuff.

 

[Majic]

I saw a post here in the handgun buy/sell section
It refered to the gunbroker item
I checked the seller feedback here and on gunbroker and it was positive.

Have you asked THR administrators for help?

 

[mogunner]

Recently, within the past week, I have had 2 incidents where I overpaid Sellers on Gunbroker, Both refunded my overpayment .