Quality of bluing - modern vs the good ol' days?

[recurry]

Hi All,

I was posting something in another thread, about 10/22s, and that got me thinking about the quality of finishes on modern guns as opposed to older ones. Is it just me, or do new guns today seem to have lower-quality bluing on them than they used to? My 10/22 is about 15+ years old, has been abused to no end, and to this day doesn't look like it's lost so much as a micron off of the finish. On the other hand, I have a much newer Browning shotgun, and the bluing came off every edge on the receiver where I handle it over the course of one summer.

I have a friend who is one of those strange "I have to buy this really old gun" types (not like any of you guys, I'm sure...) and he has a basement full of 30-50 year old guns - most of them also look like their finishes have held up better over decades than some of mine have over 2-3 years...

I'm just wondering if I should buy any more blued rifles, or just stick with the phosphatized or stainless models going forward. What do you guys think?

EDIT:

I wonder if it's just the manufacturer - do some makes have better / more durable finishes than others?

 

[CraigC]

It's not really the bluing, it's the metal prep. Polishing takes time and costs money and 'most' shooters don't care. Those of us who prefer the old bright blued finishes of S&W's and Colt's and are willing to pay for them are in the minority.

 

[Boxhead]

There is nothing IMO like a fine rust blued firearm which, when done properly, is not a high polish finish. The most durable blue method there is and very time consuming, hence expensive, to apply. Fine rilfes and shotguns of days gone by were so done. I have a pre-war J.P. Sauer Mauser Sporter that is so finished and while the rifle is well used the finish is amazingly intact and still offering the beauty it did when built ~75 years ago.

 

[Uncle Mike]

++1 Craigc....

You hit the X ring with your explanation!

 

[rattletrap1970]

I just completed my first Slow Rust blue on a Llama XI-A (1911 pattern 9mm).
I will post some photos when I get a chance. Some say one of the reasons that you don't see the quality of bluing that you used to is because of the toxicity of the chemicals used and current manufacturers reluctance to use them anymore.

 

[kamagong]

I think that quality bluing just isn't as common as it used to be. Some companies still know how to do it right though. My 2003-vintage Hi-Power has gorgeous bluing, and the new ones I've seen in the store look just as good. My Ruger 22/45 has OTOH is only three years old and there is already silver starting to show in places.

 

[paducahrider]

Old or New Blueing best?

Howdy!
CraigC is correct. The old methods were labor intensive, involving simple materials but complex hand preparation.
Many modern processes are exactly the opposite, involving less labor, but more complex materials/machinery/equipment.
Many guns are presently hot blued, which can be quicker, but, as another person said; nothing beats a proper cold rust blue finish.
Just don't expect to crank one out in a weekend, as it can take days, or even weeks to do one, in some cases.
Many folks can't discern the difference, hence "the quicker the better" suites them just fine.
Those who can tell the difference are less prone to mind the longer wait.
It's a matter of taste and the market will provide something for everyone.
Thanks for your time.

 

[icedruid]

I inherited a Ruger M77 7mm Mag from my dad when he passed away several years ago. The gun had some significance to me due to the fact that it was the rifle I used on a trip that he and I took to Alaska about 25 years ago. I used that rifle to harvest my first (and only) caribou. When he passed away that rifle (and the 8 3/4" barreled S&W Model 27 that we also took on the trip to Alaska) were the only two guns of his collection that I really wanted.

Unfortunately, my dad was the kind of guy that treated his rifles like the tools they are and, as a result, this rifle had been knocked around a bit and was sorely in need of a re-bluing. Enter my father-in-law...

My father in law is an "old school" firearms craftsman. He began to learn his trade when he was a young boy in Germany and shortly after immigrating to the US he began his "official" gunsmithing career at Pachmeyers. Today, he has his own business and builds VERY nice rifles on a very limited basis. His rifles are based on his own patented action and they are as much a work of art as they are a firearm. His bluing method of choice is rust bluing.

Out of the goodness of his heart he volunteered to show me the process involved with rust bluing a rifle with me working on my inherited 7mm along side him as he worked on one of his custom guns. The prep work for my Ruger 7mm mag took me about 3 weeks of working in the evenings and on the weekends. This involved the removal of all of the old bluing, and then the hand polishing to remove the external scratches, dings, and dents resulting from over 30 years of hard use. (Thankfully, the bore is still in good shape.) Once I thought I had the rifle ready to go I took it to his shop only to learn that I wasn't quite finished with the prep. Another 3 - 4 hours of sanding and polishing with emery cloth and hardwood backing blocks (and his guidance) and we were ready to start the bluing. Rust bluing is a process that involves applying the bluing solution (Gun Goddess in this case) and letting the barrel form a rust scale in a humid environment. The humid environment we used was a covered stainless steel tank with the barrel resting about an inch above a volume of distilled water. After 30 - 40 minutes the first rust scale has formed and the barrel is transferred to another tank where it is submerged in distilled water and boiled for about 60 minutes. This hardens the previously formed rust scale. It also changes the color from the reddish brown rust color to a darker, gunmetal gray. Next step was to take the barrel out of the tank and allow it to cool. After it cooled we polished in with a wire brush wheel mounted on a stationary grinder. The wire brushing removes the loose bluing scale material and evens out the finish. We also use a smaller hand held wire brush for the areas that couldn't be reached with the wire wheel.

We repeated this process another 8 - 10 times. With each successive cycle the bluing got darker and more even over the entire length of the barrel and action. When I asked him how he knew when it was done he replied "When it looks right.". 50+ years of doing this has given him an eye for what "looks right". In my mind, the finished barreled action was stunning. Much better than any high volume bluing job I have ever seen on a commercial rifle. Total time invested from start to finish was a week plus of prep and two full days on the actual bluing process.

Throughout the entire process we had to use wooden dowels inserted into the muzzle and bolt raceway of the action to handle the barreled action. The barrel has to be completely free from ANY and ALL oil throughout the entire process (including the oils from your skin). Any oil at all and the bluing won't form uniformly and you have to stop, clean the barrel with a good degreasing cleaner (we used brake cleaner) and start over. At one point we even had to degrease the wire wheel after I foolishly grabbed it to see how stiff the bristles were. DUH!!!

Obviously, this level of attention to detail is extremely time intensive. Hot bluing is much faster and requires much less attention to detail and this is the method that most commercial manufacturers use when finishing their firearms. As Paducahrider stated above, many folks can't tell the difference. Some of those that can will wait 5 years from order to delivery and pay up to $25,000 dollars for one of my father-in-law's rifles. He puts this kind of attention to detail into every single aspect of the guns he builds and a person that buys one of his rifles is getting every single penny's worth of what they paid for.

For me, the next step of restoration with this rifle is a complete refinishing of the stock. I'm going to take it down to bare wood, steam out the dents, touch up the checkering, and refinish with a hand rubbed oil finish. When it's all said and done my son will most likely "inherit" this gun early so we can enjoy his using it together.

 

[Slamfire]

From what I have read, rust bluing is more durable than other forms of bluing.

I had this rust blued, I should have left it alone in the 80% finish condition, but I wanted it "right". The definition of right has changed for me over time.



Pre WWII Colt revolvers had a charcoal blue. Those revolvers were put into special ovens that had revolving fixtures. A special blend of charcoal dust was blown around the revolver parts.

I believe this is charcoal blued, this is a 1927 or 1931 vintage pistol.

In my opinion, the charcoal bluing I have handled is the most attractive bluing.

If you read pre WWII books on Colt, there were a lot of workers performing surface preparation on the production floor. I read about huge leather wheels, buffers, etc. The amount of polishing they put into the older high grade guns was much more than is done today.

As much as I appreciate the beauty of these older works of art, it bothers me all to heck when a finish gets scratched or worn. These wonderful finishes are appealing to the eye but don’t make any difference on target, or in function. Now I am tending towards simpler and more durable finishes. I think parkerization is just fine as it is durable and functional. Epoxy finishes appear to be durable. Stainless, though not a finish, is just great. Just polish out the scratches with an abrasive.