Quality Primary Data

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lbmii

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Quality Primary Data

I am educated in science and work in a technical/scientific field. In science there are three types of resources: Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary. The best resource is primary; a primary resource is a report that is done on an experiment first hand and the methods are described to the point that another person could reasonably reproduce the experiment. A secondary resource is a report or article that cites primary resources. A tertiary resource is like a magazine article or an advertisement with no works cited. Tertiary recourses are not valid in science.

In the world of firearms and ammunition we have virtually zero primary resources and very few secondary resources. We rely on advertisements, assumptions, and opinion almost entirely. What we need are the facts, what we need are primary resources. We need real and reproducible data without economic bias.

On this thread please post any quality data that you might possess:

If you have conducted any test of your own please post what you did, how you did it, with what you did it with, and what were the results. When possible please include photos.

If you have found good primary or quality secondary data on the Internet please post the link.

If you have a chronometer please post your results that might be of interest.

If you have read a quality book please cite it here.

I have set up a buckshot pattern photo thread for first hand photos of buckshot patterns. I did this due to the fact that I discovered advertisements to be highly misleading when it came to the patterning of buckshot. The buckshot pattern photo thread consists of real patterns made by real people with real shotguns.

I hope in time that the Buckshot Pattern Photo Thread as well as this thread will grow to be a valuable resource for many people.

In conclusion, please post your quality firearms and ammunition data. Give us something other than ads, assumptions, and opinions to go by.
 
I beg to differ.

TFLand THR are chocked full of real life data in regard to reloading, with recipes, chrono'd results, pictures of targets...easily replicated by anyone.

Recently Erick Gelhaus , the moderator, showed the results of 55gr /.223 and wall penetration.

Black_Talon, HSMITH, Lee Lapin...Dave ( moderator), Correia, Denny Hansen, Louis Awerbuck, Pat Rogers, 444...

Bob Brister's book, though an older publication, still will answer a lot of the questions asked on this forum alone in the last 6 months. Brister also , has "moving" pattern results...shot strings and relationship to a moving target.

S.W.A.T. ain't exactly chopped liver. I mean Denny is the editor and does pay out of his own pocket to buy guns, ammo, training...I understand this is true of most if not all the staff at S.W.A.T. . In fact the owner, that Mr. Rich Lucibella. fella-..often is right next to many members here, and his staff...shooting and scooting and training right along with them.

NO offense.
I know what I have done, I have shared, I have no idea where some notebooks ended up. I just shoot the darn things most often today. Being an old fuddy duddy, nobody cares to hear what I have to say anyway. Age has its rewards. :)
 
Yes the knowledge that is contained in all of these posts runs circles around just about anything out there. What I thought was that when you get a hold of some very good data or find a good web site that has good data, post it here as well as in whatever other thread you are posting at. That way we can all have a lot of good data at one spot.

I for instance never saw the .223 data or knew about SWAT. Understand that I have read a great many post also. But because of your post I will now look for these post you recommend.

Many magazine article are reworded PR from advertisers. Real financially unbiased data is very valuable. I was one of the people who bought the Remington 710 based on positive magazine articles (maybe I can make a lamp out of my 710 to get some use out of it). I have also bought ammo that was not very good because I read glowing magazine articles and went along with the ads. We can all save a lot of money and trouble if we combine together good real data and share it. I just think it would be best if we had a thread that specialized in real first hand data and first hand test reports.
 
These links are examples of good primary research done by individuals.

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm

http://www.ammolab.com/

This is an example of a good scientific primary research paper concerning the shotgun ballistics of no. 7 1/2 and no. 4 birdshot as well as single ought buckshot. Takes a while to load.

http://www.cprc.org/tr/1998/03/tr-1998-03.pdf

Does anyone have any good links or personal experience concerning other sizes of buckshot performance in ballistic gelatin or any other experience concerning buckshot performance?
 
I don't recommend leaving slugs and buckshot in one's waxed cotton coat whilst duck hunting...don't ask me the data particulars in scientific terms...at 30 -35 yds a greenhead hit with a slug, and the one behind hit with a load of 00 buck from a mod tube...do NOT a require a follow up shot. I call it DRT, Art might it "misty"...:D

-First no harm - no foul. Now being a fuddy duddy, I have a suggestion or three...or ...

-Do a search for our own Shawn Dodson [I'm going to be sooo red faced if I spelled his name wrong...maybe Dave or someone can bail me out if I did].

-Subscribe to S.W.A.T. , and hang out and read the SWAT forum on TFL. Use the money saved from not buying other magazines to buy ammo.

-Notice the writers in SWAT and if they wrote it, they did it. If you do a search on the folks , take note of books and training and such.

-In each of the forums is a moderator, pretty sharp folks, take note of them and the folks that post within, you will get a feel of whom knows what about anything one might want to know. For Instance Steve Smith is a HP shooter, Erick Gelhaus and Jeff White can answer some Military stuff...

- Upper right hand corner is the THR Library, some really great links.

-THR has a great search function -

-If anything you read of mine is again discussed by others - disregard my posts and go with the other folks. I do. :D Older I get - the dumber I realize I am. It's true. :)

Oh...do not use a slug on low 7, I broke the target...but the 55 gal drum for trash "over yonder" ...well one could put a pole through it and toting one of them things IS easier using two folks...I voluteered to adapt others...idea didn't get raving reviews tho'...
 
lbmii, it's been the ideal here since inception of posting real data, not BS, fantasy nor advertising. There's darn few sources like this and TFL out there.

Even the NRA has caved in. It used to be shotguns were tested for POI/POA and patterned,the results were in black and white. Now, the introduction of the Savage 411 merited two pages of fluff in American Hunter with little or no real data to go on.

A review last year of the Chinese 97 clone glossed over the fact that they couldn't get it on paper at 40 yards.

This site is also mercifully free of self styled experts who really do not shoot all that much. There ARE the usual suspects, a loose group of folks with accumulated centuries of shotgunning behind them. Little chest thumping and hyperbole happens.

As for commercialism here, other than one long thread about adapters for using AR type collapseable stocks on shotguns, I've seen very little.

My own contributions include teaching what I know and a chronicle of my education in clay sports, something I did little of until about 3-4 years ago.

Ask any questions, post any real data you have, and share what you know. Thanks....
 
I just think that all this time I did not know about HighRoad. How did this site form? Who is behind it? How is it supported? Has it been around very long?
 
It's been open for maybe 18 months.

It succeeded The Firing Line, when they closed. TFL recently re-opened and some of us turn up there also. TFL is owned and operated by SWAT magazine owner Ruch Lucibella. A good guy.

The floaters at the top include stuff from TFL.

Some of the personnel behind this were Moderators and Administrators on TFL. Others like me just cluttered things up there and were "Promoted" on arrival here.

The site is courtesy of Derek Zeanah, who donated his time and much hardware.

Oleg Volk, a Russian emigre and 2nd Amendment advocate, helped organize and set up this site.

The regulars here on the Shotgun BB, including but not limited to Al Thompson, sm, kudu, HSmith, PJR, Denny Hansen, and many others comprise a "Think tank" with centuries of accumulated real world experience in Shotgunning in all its aspects.

In my jaundiced but probably correct opinion, this is the best place on the Net for learning about shotgunning.

The other BBs here are good also....
 
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