Question about Mosin ammo

[EvilDonald]

Recently at a gun show I was unable to talk myself out of spending money and walked away with a Mosin-Nagant M44 and a case of milsurp ammo. I had the gun checked out a few days later, and was very pleased to have the gunsmith tell me it's one of the nicer Mosins he's seen, and there's no reason not to shoot it.

However, being a complete newbie to anything other than my little .22 Marlin, I would like to know a bit about this ammo.

It appears to be Czech, silver tip, steel cased. The stamping on the rim indicates a manufacture date of '62. There are a whole lot of what to my eyes are random numbers on the wooden box it came in.

Basically, is this stuff corrosive or not? What experiences, if any, has anyone had with this ammo? Is it reliable? Any special concerns with steel vs. brass casings?

Any advice or information you can offer will be quite appreciated.

 

[Sactown]

For the sake of your barrel, I would expect all unknown milsurp ammo to be corrosive, especially old Com Bloc ammo. I have a bottle of 50/50 water and windex that I spray down the barrel at the range when I finish shooting. I run a quick patch down the bore, wipe down all metal pieces and then clean as soon as I get home. Not as involved as it seems, but will save you future sewer pipe grief.

 

[DMK]

I agree with Sactown. All surplus 7.62x54R is corrosive. I just assume the commercial stuff is also, just to be safe.

The main thing is, use a water based solution to disolve the corrosive salts and wash them out. Warm is better, clean a still warm barrel or use warm water.

I like to use a capful of straight ammonia in an old Hoppe's jar half full of warm water though. Just wet some patches in the stuff and swab the bore real good. Wip off the bolt face also. After that clean like you normally would any other rifle.

That Czech Silvertip ammo is great stuff. I've got like three cases of it and shoot it all the time. Don't worrk about the steel cases. The Combloc guns are made for it.

You can get some more at AIM: www.aimsurplus.com

 

[EvilDonald]

This is good to know, as the gun has a nice bore and I'd like to keep it that way.

And I nearly bought some of that AIM ammo, but I went ahead and paid a bit more at the show 'cos I was there and it was still dirt cheap. Can you ship ammo like anything else, or do I need to go through a shop like I was buying a gun?

 

[greyhound]

Just got a new Mosin myself!

From what I've heard, you should be OK with '62 ammo, though it is probably corrosive.

I have heard to be on the lookout for WWII era ammo with the Russian "E" on the left of the casing, as that was 7.62X54 ammo meant for airplane machine guns, not MNs. I've also heard that some ammo in Czech boxes is actually Russian.

Anyway, some of the "old salts" may know more than me. Personally, I spent a couple bucks more and got modern Wolf ammo, especially since I heard they don't use laquer on their casings anymore.....

 

[WyrTwister]

MN

I treat ALL foreign ammo as corrosive .


God bless
Wyr

 

[DMK]

Can you ship ammo like anything else, or do I need to go through a shop like I was buying a gun?

You can receive ammo to your house unless you have some weird local regulation against it. You may have to sign for it (I forget if that's necessary with rifle ammo), but I very rarely do. Most times they just leave it on my porch.

Watch shipping charges! Ammo is heavy and some companies rape you with S/H (cough)ammunitionstore(cough). AIM isn't to bad in my experience, but realize that shipping charges may vary depend on where it's going and where it's coming from. Call your vendor and have them quote S/H to your zipcode to be sure.

If you are the sender there are a few special things you need to do, but I don't think that was what you were asking.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Is it corrosive?

Combloc from 1962?

I'd bet hard and heavy money on it.

Clean as if it is, and you won't go wrong.

And remember, you need a solvent with WATER in it to cut corrosive priming salts. An oil-based solvent like Hoppes No. 9 won't do it.

 

[benEzra]

Wolf 148-gr FMJ is completely noncorrosive and the steel case is now copper-washed rather than laquer coated. (Just to make sure it was noncorrosive, I left a fired (steel) case sitting out for a couple of months (in humid Florida) and the inside of the case never rusted.)

With my M39, I've shot a 1 3/8" group at 100 yards with the Wolf, from a rest.

 

[Cosmoline]

Second the motion for Wolf. I've had good luck with the heavy 200 grain loadings, and the new cases solve the sticking problems. It is berdan primed but doesn't seem too corrosive.

 

[foghornl]

You can just about bet your entire paycheck that any ammo made in "Communist Bloc" countries for "Communist Bloc" weapons is corrosive primed.

Use a lot of hot water and/or Windex type cleaning solvents, and you should be OK. Or use the WWII vintage type "USGI" bore cleaner.

 

[Cosmoline]

Keep in mind, ALL ammunition of ALL types are corrosive. There is really no such thing as non-corrosive ammunition. The act of firing invites corrosion. In my experience, the older military surplus ball 7.62x54R, just like the old 8x57JS, is highly corrosive. However, the new production Wolf is no more corrosive than US or Czech ammunition. You want to clean afterwards, but there's no need for the massive hot water or windex treatments. I've left my bores uncleaned for weeks after firing Wolf with no ill effects. I did that once with old Turk 8x57JS and the bore was completely rusted out.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Cosmoline,

I beg to differ.

There are no compounds in the power or primers of modern commercial ammunition that promote rusting of the steel.

If that were the case, however, then my S&W Model 19 4" would be complete and absolute toast, as I've not cleaned it since late 1999, and it's had almost 4,000 rounds through it since then.

Corrosion only occurrs in the presence of water or organic acids.

There are no compounds formed by the firing of modern ammunition that have hygroscopic properties.

There are no organic acids formed by firing modern ammunition. Acids are used in the manufacture of smokeless propellants, especially ball powder, but there are neutralizers added to ensure that any left over acids don't destabilize the powder.

In fact, it was the addition of too much neutralizer (calcium carbonate) that was one of the main causes of fouling in the first generation of M-16 rifles serving in Vietnam.

 

[Cosmoline]

My point was that the act of firing the weapon itself induces rust. If for no other reason the heat and friction will increase the potential for rust.

In any case, modern production non-US ammunition typically uses NON corrosive primers. Just because it's Berdan primed does not mean it's corrosive. I've read the internet reports about how all ammunition coming from outside the USA is evil and corrosive. I take them with a grain of salt (ha ha ) . I've seen what REAL corrosive primers do. There's no if, ands or buts about what it does. Turk surplus will rust out a barrel in no time if not cleaned out. I've seen no such effects from current production Wolf, S&B, Barnaul, etc. So if they are corrosive they're only very mildly corrosive.

I sure hope there aren't rust pits growing unseen under the deep layers of lead and copper fouling in that Model 19

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

uuh. Hoppes number 9 is designed to clean guns fired with corrosive ammo.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Andrew,

"Hoppes number 9 is designed to clean guns fired with corrosive ammo."

No it's not. Hoppes was designed to be a nitro-powder solvent, but NOT a solvent for black powder residue or corrosive primer residue.

Hoppes contains virtually no water -- it's an oil-based solvent.

If you use an oil-based solvent to clean a gun fired with corrosive ammunition, you WILL have a rusting problem.



Cosmoline,

"My point was that the act of firing the weapon itself induces rust."

No, it doesn't.

"If for no other reason the heat and friction will increase the potential for rust."

That's a lot closer to the truth of the matter.

"In any case, modern production non-US ammunition typically uses NON corrosive primers."

There's a WORLD of wiggle room in the word typlically, Cosmo.

Corrosive primers were STILL being used in military ammunition in former Communist block nations as late as the 1990s, and there's still the potential for its use.

Ammo made for the commercial US market should be non-corrosive.

As for mildly corrosive, there's really no such thing. That's sort of like being a little bit pregnant.

There's corrosive ammo, and there's non-corrosive ammo. The only difference is in the total weight of potassium chloride formed when the primer detonates.

 

[Cosmoline]

Just because the primer is not using actively corrosive compounds does not mean the ammunition won't rust the bore. This is the problem I always have with shooters who never clean their iron. But we don't need to argue it here. Your own Model 19 offers an excellent test to either prove or disprove my theory. Go ahead and clean it and let me know what you find under the years of lead and copper. It will take a lot of potent chemicals, but it can be done with elbow grease. If it's pristine under the layers, I'll stand corrected.

 

[P95Carry]

Mike has it nailed .. (of course! ) ... but I'd add Cosmo that the word we need to really be aware of is ''hygroscopic'' .... regretably the chlorate ion makes for a bad deal on this .... it might as well be a sponge!!!

KCLO3 is much less a problem than NaCLO3 .... but I have a feeling it is the latter that is left as residue after using true corrosive milsurp ammo. Plus - due to it being a polarized ion .... it HAS to be dissolved with water . as Mike said to someone else .. Hoppes #9 sure as hell will not do that!

So - water first (or water based) .. then dry, dry, dry .... and THEN switch to organics .. other cleaners and lubes etc.


Oh and as someone else pointed out too .... it is a fair bet that cases boxer primed will usually be non-corrosive.

 

[cheygriz]

I hope you will enjoy your M44 and your Czech ammo as much as I am enjoying mine.

It is corrosive! I pour 1/2 of a LARGE tea kettle of BOILING water down the bore, swab with a patch or two, pour the other half of the tea kettle down the bore, wipe with another patch, then clean normally.

BTW, the new Russian Wolf ammo is NOT corrosive. (But it's a little more expensive,)

 

[P95Carry]

At risk of repetition (cos i have posted this before) ..... a great formulation for BP cleaning ... and also therefore post corrosive ammo ...... is ...

3 parts ....... iso propyl alcohol (Rubbing alcohol)
3 parts ....... std 3% peroxide
2 parts ....... Murphy's Oil Soap (think that's right ... but ya'' know what i mean!)

I mixed up a gallon .. and it needs stored in airtight and light resistant contained (I use an old anti -freeze (yellow) gallon jug for the bulk) .. and keep a pint handy in one of the emptied peroxide bottles. Store way from light.

Cornbread2 (who I notice has joined recently I think) ... posted this way back on another board.

This stuff works .... and you can always microwave a small amount for the job in hand so as to have it hot.



After this .. a plain water patch followed by drying patches and .... complete the clean as per normal.

 

[railroader]

On both my 91/30 and my M44 nagants all I have shot is corrosive ammo. As soon as I get home from the range I spray windex down the bore and run some patches after it. I then clean the rifle normally. No rust so far after about a half a case of ammo. The bore still looks good. Mark

 

[DMK]

On both my 91/30 and my M44 nagants all I have shot is corrosive ammo. As soon as I get home from the range I spray windex down the bore and run some patches after it. I then clean the rifle normally. No rust so far after about a half a case of ammo. The bore still looks good.

Yea, that's all you have to do. It doesn't have to get complicated.

All I shoot is corrosive in my Mosins. I use either Windex with ammonia or ammonia/water mixed. I've never had any rust problems in rifles that didn't already have dark bores whan I got them.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Go ahead and clean it and let me know what you find under the years of lead and copper."

I can already answer that question from the last time I did this, with both the 4" Model 19, the 4" Model 28, the 6" Model 28, the 4" Regulation Police, et . cet.

No rust in the chambers.

No rust in the bore.

And they ALL had multiple thousands of rounds put through them between cleanings.

There's no lead in the bores, either, (as verified with a friend's borescope). I choose my bullets VERY carefully.

Same with my Winchester Model 1200 shotgun. I shot it through an entire trap and hunting season just after I got out of college -- approximately 6,000 rounds.

When I finally got around to cleaning it, no rust. Just lots of plastic fouling.

Look, atmospheric pollutants and water in the air are more likely and capable of causing rusting in steet than are the compounds in modern smokeless powders and primers.

 

[benEzra]

Just out of curiosity, I took a just-fired steel case from a round of Wolf ammo (can't remember if it was 7.62x39 or 7.62x54, but it was lacquer-coated externally and Berdan primed) and left in a moderately humid place for several months. As a control, I used a just-fired case of 1980s manufacture steel-case Russian milsurp 7.62x54 (gray case, IMO), which was billed as "moderately corrosive." After several months, I compared the two; the milsurp case was heavily rusted inside, but the steel on the inside of the Wolf case was COMPLETELY rust-free (nothing but powder residue). I would take this to mean that whatever priming compound Wolf uses, it does NOT appreciably promote corrosion in steel beyond the ordinary hygroscopic effects of carbon residue. Milsurp is another story, however.

 

[Dionysusigma]

I have heard to be on the lookout for WWII era ammo with the Russian "E" on the left of the casing, as that was 7.62X54 ammo meant for airplane machine guns, not MNs. I've also heard that some ammo in Czech boxes is actually Russian. (Greyhound)

So what's the difference between aircraft MG ammo and rifle loads? Bullet weight? Overall charge?