Question About Rhodesia

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Recently, I got a chance to talk to a veteran of the Rhodesian War, Second Chimurenga, whatever you wanna call it.

The guy said he was in the Rhodesian Light Infantry, and was a native Rhodesian citizen. We came to argue over things. I've studied the conflict, and the main problem seemed to be that America, Britain, etc. did not want to support a governmental regime that was oppressing a segment of it's society in a nasty little war that no one cared about, especially after 'nam. They seemed to look at Rhodesia like they looked at the rest of sub-saharan africa. Why stand for one oppressive tribe over another? Bacause one is white? Not after the civil rights movement, and not in the middle of the cold war. There are more important things.

I've been taught that the Rhodesian gov was racist, and did exclude the native mashona from political processes, and kept them from joining the economy as much more than help around the home or farm.

While Robert Mugabe was [0I]not[/I] Shona, and had no business in the fight, the shona were oppressed.

I was told by this gentleman though that although he fought many an African, he also fought cubanos, and german (east). He also said that the guerillas were heavily backed by communist forces, and that the Rhodesians actually fought w/ blacks against the Mugabe led forces. (not in the RLI, but that lots of the mozambique and angolan troops fighting w/ portuguese gov troops were africans)

So, I'm asking, anyone who was an american fighting there, or anyone who is from zimbabwe/rhodesia, what happened? What was really going on? I did a little research, and while I think it was obvious Mugabe was going to do exactly what he has done, a revolt was going to happen, and the only way the whites could have survived is by desegregating their society, and more importantly, their education system, developing the country with the indigenous tribal peoples, and basically marrying into the local population until they were one people (Brits did this in New Zealand, but circumstances were different).

Yes, I know the country is in shambles now, post-rhodesia, and that the majority shona people are worse off as a whole, but tell me what led to it.

Was there communist support? Why would they care about Rhodesia (it's a big grassland, with cows)? And how close did the whites come to winning?

 

[TaxPhd]

I wasn't there. But for what it's worth . . .

ZIPRA, also called ZAPU (trained by Russians and East Germans) and ZANLA, also called ZANU (trained by the North Koreans and Chinese) were both major communist organizations.





Scott

 

[Eisande]

Africa was (and in some ways continues) to be a hotbed of East vs. West proxy warfare.

There are several books on the subject of Rhodesians wars, I encourage you to go to Amazon or Powells and type in "selous scouts" "rhodesia accuses" and other like terms.

I was always impressed by the RLI recruiting poster, "Be a man among men, join the Rhodesian Light Infantry."

Yes, there were man black soldiers who fought along with their white Rhodesian counterparts. I think in hindsight the government lost sight of the great opportunity to develop and use their great native citizens. But that is a long discussion for another time.

What a great time for the battel rifle! FN Fal, G3, etc.

On a side note, if you read a lot of south africa war stories, and by that I include the battles in South West Africa, Mozambique, etc, you see that they had a lot of tactics down that our Army is now coming to realize. Things like vehicle designed to hit mines, light fast movers, etc.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

As a response to Eisande:

From what I've heard about Fireforce, it would do wonders in Iraq. But there are two problems.

#1: High collateral damage.

#2: Anti-air weaponry

I read about the way the Rhodesians fought. I read they would drop into Mozambique or Angola, and wipe out everyone they could in a given mission. Everyone may include the opposing soldier's family. Yeah, I know, often it may be hard to know the difference. But you have to answer for that sort of thing later.

Also, the Grail missile launcher is a big detterent to using vertical envelopment.

Really what I want is some sort of link, personal story, etc. saying how this broke down. Especially, the interactions of the Shona w/ whites, and their interaction w/ insurgents.

Also, a discussion of how the RLI would move when they fought the insurgents. What were the insurgents really like?

Obviously, this is of interest to the shooting world. When you have the "Mozambique Drill" and the "Rhodesian" mag pouch. From what I've heard, a lot of the modern IPSC stuff came out of Rhodesian ideas

 

[Hacker15E]

Also, the Grail missile launcher is a big detterent to using vertical envelopment.

Having been on the recieving end of an SA-7 over in Iraq, I'd beg to differ. Although those things are cheap, easy to hide, easy to move, easy to use....they are also easy to defeat in any kind of fixed-wing aircraft.

They're a big threat to helicopters, in much the same way an RPG can be, but that's about it.

 

[LAK]

Black troopers were a major part of one of Rhodesia's most effective arms in the war - the Selous Scouts. And many Selous Scout trainers were black. Ian Smith sought a truly independent Rhodesia, and the globalists were not having any of that. Hey, with all those resources, Rhodesia might have started printing real money. The idea might have caught on in neighboring states; think of all that oil, gas, gold, diamonds, minerals, ores etc in independent hands. Gosh, they might have started selling it free trade style - at their own prices and to whom they pleased

Most of the conflicts in Africa have overtly sought to overturn the old colonials - hence popular support - and replace them with marxists/communists. But underneath this series of conflicts, the independents have been targeted by the globalists. And witness the way a distinctly communist front like the MPLA are now considered "the good guys", against UNITA who are now considered "the bad guys".

But the race issue in Africa seems to have clouded historical truth. Now that "the oppressors" have been removed from the visible seats of government in SA and Rhodesia; who is suffering the most right now? What are the prospects of those countries?

Pretty grim right now and for the foreseeable future. The populations of all these "liberated" and now "democratic" countries have been turned into good little economic slaves.
-----------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[HankB]

Can't speak from personal experience as to what happened on the ground, but I hunted in SE Zimbabwe in the early 90's and heard some war stories about what had gone on.

Lots of terrorists were coming through that area from Mozambique, and causing all kinds of problems in homesteads, smaller towns, etc. Murders, rapes, bank robberies, you name it. Zimbabwe staged some helicopter raids out of the Malapati airstrip into terrorist camps situated in their neighbor, and the international community took exception to this - but not, of course, to the terrorist raids into Rhodesia. (Sort of like what happens when Israel retaliates after a terrorist suicide bombing.)

Still, Rhodesia was more or less holding it's own during the Nixon and Ford administrations, but then came Jimmy Carter.

Mr. Peanut decided that the US would abide with U.N. sanctions and cease buying Rhodesian chrome on the grounds of "human rights" violations; instead, we began buying it (at 4x the price) from that great defender of human rights, the Soviet Union.

This influx of hard currency helped finance the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and looking at the region today we all know where that ultimately led. (Thanks, Jimmy!)

I don't have details on all the politics involved, but the short version is that Rhodesia's government went broke, and had to capitulate. Look at what's happening today in Zimbabwe, and you'll see where that ultimately led. (Thanks again, Jimmy!)

There was a strong element of political correctness related to skin color in Carter's edict - at the same time the U.S. stopped buying Rhodesian chrome, Carter was OK with our buying Ugandan coffee - and Uganda's ruler at the time was Idi Amin, an admitted cannibal.

When you're talking human rights violations, maybe it's just me, but devouring someone has got to be near the top.

 

[ebd10]

There used to be a writer named Michael Peirce on LewRockwell.com that was a Rhodesian Vet. I've traded emails with him, nice guy.