Question about Simunitions...

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Autolycus

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Are they legal for civilians to own and train with? I noticed in the airsoft thread that one poster mentioned using them. I was curious if they are legal for Non-LEO/Non-Military people to use? If so where can I get some to try? And do the guns require special modification or anything?
 
Tecumseh said: I was curious if they are legal for Non-LEO/Non-Military people to use? If so where can I get some to try? And do the guns require special modification or anything?
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Legal . . . well not illegal, but unless something changed in the last few months, you aren't going to be able to buy them. They're only sold to approved customers.

Yes, semi-automatics require special mods; revolvers work as normal, but ejection is stiff.


Airsoft is less expensive, and you can actually get ahold of the stuff.
 
Certainly they are legal to train with.
But, you need to go to somewhere where training is conducted, you arn't just going to buy some yourself and start shooting it out with your friends. Most of the major firearms training facilities have sims (I guess). We used sims in a couple classes I took at Gunsite. Here is a class that I am signed up for at Frontsight: http://www.frontsight.com/Courses.asp?Action=View&ID=247 However, note that even there you have to have the prerequisite classes to take that one.
 
What do you mean, "If so where can I get some to try?"? Try how? This stuff isn't some toy. It's a painful tool for force on force trainig and can cause injuries even when properly used.

It isn't a question of legal or illegal, but having trained with Simunitions I can tell you that it's a good thing that they don't let just any jackass get their hands on the stuff. If you did not use proper safety equipement you could end up putting an eye out and if you did not follow proper safety practices to assure that no lethal ammo was any where around you could end up dead (as has happened with Simunition).
 
Simmunitions are not generally available to civilians. There are companies that train with Simmunitions that allow civilians to attend the training. That would be your best bet.

Airsoft is a popular alternative. Safety precautions must still be followed, but the guns are more readily available.
 
HSO:

I was curious. About the legality of owning some. I also wanted to try it and see if I think it is a more worthwhile training tool than airsoft or some of the other training tools. I dont see it as a toy but as something that might be a fun and worthwhile training experience.

As for a place to use it a good friend has a large farm with some extra barns, silos, and other places to practice with it.

Anyone got any suggestions on some of these companies that allow Civilians to train with simmunitions? I got the Frontsight link (thanks 444) and was curious as to where I could find some other training centers.
 
Simunitions are obscenly expensive. The cost alone would put them out of reach of most private citizens even if the company would sell them to you.

They require a lot of safety precautions and I've never trained in a simunitions scenario where someone didn't get cut, although that has usually been from someone refusing to wear long sleeves. Cut my sergeants arms up bad doing active shooter training a few years back. It was too hot for him to put on long sleeves for the simunitions part, he advanced down the hall with his weapon center of his chest and two rounds of the NSR I fired from the AR hit his forearms as he raised his pistol.

There are other options out there.

Jeff
 
Tecumseh,

This stuff is just dangerous enough that I can't imagine the company selling it to anyone outside of recognised trainers or military/LE.
 
crofrog,
That incident was a few years back. The AR was still shooting the pistol sims in the special magazine. I don't have any experience with the new sim rounds specifically for use in the AR. You can get good and cut up from the pistol sims.

Jeff
 
Such things hurt! I agreed that they are not to be used by folks without professional supervision with training professionals.

If they were sold to people who want to self-train themselves - they'd shoot their eyes out and then sue because they thought they were safe. :barf:

Airsoft and paintballs are dangerous also without gear. To pontificate, FOF exercises have to be very well planned and supervised or they turn into kiddie gunfights. I'm not sure that self-designed ones by begineers are worth much.
 
The simunitions themselves are ridiculously expensive, and the equipment is pricey as well (think specialty m-4 uppers w/ modified bolt, barrels, and upper recievers.

We had a guy get pretty messed up after he was shot in the cheek. They feel like paintballs when you are hit through several layers of clothing but if you get hit on exposed skin they are much worse.
 
I've noticed that in simunitions, CQB paintball and airsoft, etc., forearm hits are extremely common. Really drives home the point that you need to use ammo with enough penetration to punch through an arm, including the bone if necessary, and keep on going.
 
They work best after being left in the freezer for a while.

No, seriously, they will leave a mark, but are a great training tool. You learn really quick on what not to do.
 
1. Buy a paintball gun.
2. Shoot yourself repeatedly in the upper body with it at close range.
3. Cry quietly in the corner for 5 minutes (no more!!).
4. Decide if you really want to be shot with something packing a higher MV.





The above post is intended as a joke.....but, anyone wishing to undertake it should feel free to post a report here:)
 
No, defender48, they will sell it to civilians, but they only sell it to civilians under very restrictive terms. I am a civilian, I was a civilian when we were training with it, I was a civilian the first time I received training with it and the facility was a civilian training facility.
 
They work best after being left in the freezer for a while.

No, seriously, they will leave a mark, but are a great training tool. You learn really quick on what not to do.
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This is moronic. Using a product for training in a method it is not designed for not only run's the risk of injury, but also liabilty.

People get hurt more often than you think with paintball and airsoft. Specially when the proper saftey protocols are not followed.


Chris
 
Don't know about everyone else, but I got it.;)

PPE for training with Simunition requires the use of face shields, head/ear protection, throat and neck protection. You're a dumbass if you don't also wear long sleeves and trousers, gloves and some sort of torso protection (says the dumbass with the Sim scar on his left hand from not wearing his gloves). If you don't, you will after the first time you're shot:evil: If you get hit in the ear with a sim round it will injure you. If you get hit in the throat by a sim round it will injure you. If you get hit in the face with a sim round it will injure you. If you get hit in the eye with a sim round it will injure you. How bad the injury is depends upon luck, but if you get hit in the eye you will have no luck at all and will probably lose some if not all vision in the eye.

Safety protocols to ensure that no live rounds get fired have to be strict. You'd think people would understand this, but every now and then someone puts a live round into one of the old sim glocks and kills their partner or blows the gun up. No live ammo can be around any of the areas where training is to take place. This includes the class room. That means you leave all live ammo outside the trianing area regardless of how you feel about always being armed. Buddy checks to verify this are needed and instructors need an assistant to help check the buddy checks before anyone comes in to train and before they go out into the shoot house. Anything less puts everyone's life at risk.
 
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Simunitions are:

1. Hard for non-governmental entities to obtain.

2. Obscenely expensive. I mean, really. They cost a ludicrous amount of money.

3. Don't really cycle that well. You will get skilled at tap-rack-bang if you train with them. Or, more likely, tap-rack-click-tap-rack-click-curse-curse-*WHAP*-*WHAP*-*WHISTLE*.

4. They *REALLY* hurt if you get hit in a good spot.

5. You can screw up and accidentally load live ammo. :uhoh:

As has been said before, Airsoft is a much better force-on-force training aid for the average private individual. You can buy an airsoft gun just like your duty/ccw gun, stripe it blue and have a dedicated trainer that you can tell upon visual inspection is not loaded with live rounds (and is impossible to load with live rounds). You can load it up with a realistic amount of ammo. You can then (in a well-designed scenario conducted in a safe environment, ahem) go forth and light up your buddies.

It might not seem as "cool" as simunitions, and it will cost more to get you set up to run than simunitions, but in the long run it will be more effective (you can train all day long for the cost of propane and BBs) and cheaper (see preceeding point).

Do a search for "Airsoft" and "training" on here for more info, including the limitations of it as a training aid.

Mike
 
One more vote for everything these other guys said. I've never trained with Simunitions, but I have been shot with something called "Code Eagle" rounds. I'm told they hurt just as bad as Simunitions and I am here to tell you that they are a lot worse than getting hit with a paintball.

Airsoft is your friend. Just wear your eye protection (and make very sure you, and everyone else, really does!) and you can do force-on-force training all day long. Airsoft is cool.
 
Having done a lot of paintball, and a whole lot of sim training (or at least being shot at in sim training, ah the joys of being the intern), I personally prefer sims to paintball in terms of pain. A sim round is barely even discernable through a ballistic vest, or a sim's protective vest and a denim shirt. Even with just a denim shirt, it won't break skin, it'll just leave a small bruise. A paintball will live a larger one, a much larger one if close.

I've been shot by an MP-5 running full auto, 3 AR-15's at once, and more pistols at once then I want to count (though since it was the whole stack I think it was 8), and sure it can sting but with proper safety it's effective.

Proper safety BTW is AT MINIMUM FULL HEAD AND NECK PROTECTION! Highly recomend long sleeves and pants, a cup or chest protector for the ladies, and gloves.

They are as noted Extremely expensive, at bulk rates it's still around $1.50 per round (that's not a type, one dollar and fifty cents). Sim fire fights get real expensive real fast.

However they have a couple of things going for them other systems don't. First is the fact you can covert YOUR personal weapon to fire sims, getting your exact trigger, draw stroke, etc. Secondly they are ballistically accurate for longer distances then airsoft or paintball (though a long barreled pump action might be more accurate). Third they are really easy clean up, the stuff is colored soap, not fish oil based, or little tiny plastic balls. Lastly the crack-pop of a sim gun while not even close to a real weapon, is still much more authentic then either sims or paintball, and man does audio add to the experience.

Just my two cents,

-Jenrick
 
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