Question about working in a bar..

[jsalcedo]

A friend of mine owns a bar and has asked me to help him on occasion, bouncing, cleanup etc..

Its fun work, good music, nice folks etc..

A couple of times I've had to protect the waitress and bartenders
from drunken groping fools. Deal with brawlers and hairpulling catfights over a pool tournament gone awry and eject them as necessary both as a customer and as an employee.

The owner carries and has told me on numerous occasion that
he doesn't mind if I carry my CCW in his bar.


Is this wise? The bar is in a decent part of town and most of the time there is no problem....

I have seen things get out of hand on occasion and I'm worried that I might get over my head.

Any wisdom on this would be appreciated.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Better to have a weapon and not need it, than to need a weapon and not have it. Even while carrying a gun, should you feel you're in over your head, you can still run.

 

[Robert inOregon]

Texas prohibits CCW at any establishment that get more than half their income serving alcohol. So your duties at your friends bar have to be official, as you are an employee getting a paycheck in order to possibly bypass the law (I'm not a lawyer). This also forces the bars insurance policy to cover you should something happen (make sure that there "proper" insurance). Due to the nature of the business, it should be this way from the get go anyway.

 

[Number 6]

I spent my last 2 years of college working as a bouncer in a bar. The first thing I would do is to check the legality of carrying in a bar and being an employee. That being said I think you might want to consider a couple of things about working in a bar. Firstly if it is like any of the bars that I have worked at the physical altercations that happen tend to be very close quarters and any weapon that you do have can either be taken or knocked loose. Secondly drunk people can get very stupid and act more irrationally than a sober person, so if you had to pull your weapon their reaction would be hard to gauge. I once saw a guy that was 5'2'' 110lbs walk up to a guy that was a UFC fighter and try to pick a fight; if the guy would have been sober he would have realized how foolish he was being. These are things that I would just consider.

There were many times however that I wish I was armed when I was working. In my experience working in bars I had my life threatened more than one time, had people wait near my car for me after work, had people try to follow me home, spotted several people obviously carrying illegally concealed firearms, taken knives away from people trying to take them into the bar, and have been assaulted on more than one occasion. In all of these occasions I really wish I had one of my guns on me.

What you might want to look into is getting a stun gun and some pepper spray. I have used pepper spray twice and I would recommend MK-3, which is the brand that worked best of the two brands I have used. I also started to carry a 500,000 volt stun gun after another bouncer was almost killed by someone coming from behind and trying to choke him to death. A stun gun has the advantage of being able to be used inside and all you need to do is make contact with the person. Keep in mind that both of these tools have certain legal constraints upon them and need to be used only if the situation calls for it. The only reason I ever used the pepper spray was because I was being assaulted with a weapon but in most circumstances it is not warranted to be used and should not be used indoors unless your life is in danger.

If you feel comfortable and secure being armed and it is legal I would do it. I would also look into getting a stun gun and/or pepper spray. With all things however I cannot stress enough the need to do the research and find the legality of whatever it is you do decide to carry.

 

[Art Eatman]

In Texas, you can carry in the bar without a CHL if it's at the owner's request--he has control of the premises, insofar as the law is concerned. However, his insurance company might require that you be an offical employee as regards the paperwork.

Carrying "on duty" might not be wise, from the standpoint of somebody managing to take the gun from you in a "mass melee". Having it behind the bar and wearing it upon exiting at closing time makes sense.

My only managerial experience in a bar was my folk music club in Austin--and that audience is basically a non-violent group. So, I carried all the time, fearing outside problems far more than inside.

Art

 

[geegee]

I spent many years bouncing in bars, both in very upscale nightclubs (where I wore a tuxedo), to t-shirt and jeans-rock'n roll-barf in the alley types of places. Even though I now carry daily as a result of a CHL, I don't know that I'd advise a bouncer to carry while on the job. Here's why.

The toughest place I ever worked in (the rock 'n roll place) had a pretty varied clientele. We'd get everyone from nursing students from a local girl's college to bikers, as well as having a reputation of being the favorite spot of the local LEO's from the city police department. It was the kind of place where everyone came to let their hair down and engage in some hard drinking. I regularly would pat a guy down upon entering, if I thought he had a knife. I'm not just talking about a Buck in a belt sheath (that was easy-I'd just tell him he had to check it with me), I mean military style blades stuck in a sheath inside their belt. It was accepted by and large with no resistance from the patrons.

One of the owners once told me I was the best doorman they had. I knew this wasn't because I was the biggest and toughest guy that worked there, nor was I the best street-fighter. I'm 6' 3'' and weighed about 220 lbs at the time, but was probably just average size-wise in comparison to a few of the other guys. The biggest guy was about 6' 5" and weighed about 300 lbs, but wasn't working there when I was, having been shot by a guy with a rifle after throwing the guy out of the bar. What helped me more than anything was being able to diffuse a potentially dangerous situation before it began.

More than anything, you need to be able to spot a potential trouble maker in the crowd before he acts up. Once he (or they) do, will you then be able to quickly (and hopefully, discreetly) resolve the situation before it escalates? Bouncers that see themselves as the house "hit man" will quickly develop a reputation, but will eventually generate far more problems than they eliminate. People will seek you out to challenge you.

One of the arguments against citizens carrying a concealed firearm is that of losing your weapon in an altercation. It can't be discounted, but I don't see it as a major concern. But carrying as a bar bouncer? I think that could happen any night of the week, especially once people know you carry. In a dark room with plenty of people swarming in front of you, on all sides, and worst of all behind you, it would be far to easy to get overcome from a blind side and have your weapon taken from you. I've been jumped on from behind like anyone who's ever done that job, and I can only imagine what could have happened if I was carrying concealed. When it happens you're moving as fast as you can, and can only hope you get some help quick.

One time I was actually shot at happened after a group of guys were thrown out into a side alley, by myself and two other guys. I had already been rolling around on the floor with one guy (what would happen to my gun then?). It was dark and nobody knew what happened until one of my coworkers yelled "Gun!" We piled back into the door as a shot was fired. If I had a gun then, what would I have thought to do-stay in a dark alley with a drunk with a gun, then try to disarm him? If that same guy knew I was carrying, and decided to challenge me inside the club, how bad could a shooting be, within a crowded environment like that?

I think the potential negatives of carrying as a bouncer far outweigh the positives. The job is not that of a private body guard, where you try to become unobtrusive yet maintain a presence, but one where you need to be up close and personal with many people, and often many of them have been drinking. My opinion? It's a bad idea. geegee

 

[spacemanspiff]

This also forces the bars insurance policy to cover you should something happen (make sure that there "proper" insurance). Due to the nature of the business, it should be this way from the get go anyway.

you'd be surprised how many insurance policies won't cover a risk if there are firearms present, especially at bars/drinking establishments. so while you will probably have no legal ramifications from carrying while working at a bar, if something does go badly there might not be any compensation from your employers insurance company.

 

[axeman_g]

my experience

carrying as a bouncer/doorman is a bad choice while the club is open. To many stupid people, to much chance to lose in altercation, to many people would be made nervous if spotted. I had an ASP nearby all the time though.

That being said, I always carried after hours, cleaning up, relaxing and restocking. The cash is being counted then and good criminals know when to hit a liqour establishment. College bars are an easy target .. not many kids carry.

We always had at least three people in our bar carrying, expecially after closing! Thats the time I would recomend you strap it on.

 

[jsalcedo]

Thanks for the great responses.

I have a clearer picture of what to expect. There are firearms stashed at different points behind the bar but my job is mostly out and about.

I'll be sure to arm myself at closing. It makes sense that the real danger will start there as we are about a block away from
a major university and are situated next to an "unmarked swingers club" with lots of weird folks in the parking lot at 2am.

Since I'm working as an independent contractor I'll keep the
insurance in mind as well.

 

[Chuck Dye]

What geegee said!

I can only add: have a quick and sure routine for backing up any employee in a confrontation, which means you have back up too, and actively fight condition white.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

I'd question about people not being allowed to carry at business where they serve drinks. I heard of women who work at "Hooters" and strip clubs carrying for protection and with good reason. Unfortunately, something bad has to happen to them first before the local cops agree they're in a dangerous line of work. Knew one girl -- someone I went to high school with -- that got murdered by two guys as she left her job at a club where she danced. If she had a gun -- I'm sure she'd be alive to tell us all about it.