Question: At what range would you feel undergunned with pump/lever/bolt vs semi?

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Glamdring

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Not talking infantry. But say Rural LE or HD in country. When, if ever, would you feel that pump/lever/bolt gun would be lacking vs semi in same caliber/gauge?

Would it matter if you had a revolver or auto pistol to back up the long gun?
 
If all I had was my Mosin-Nagant M-44 & 10 bad guys approaching ......yeah, maybe outgunned.


With Marlin lever gun...about even

US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly Known as 'The Garand'...I have the advantage.
 
Agreed. Range is not the issue. The tactical situation is the issue. The more adversaries, the more need for semi-auto (or full auto) fire.

A bolt gun is not a great tool for "riot control". A lever or pump is better. A semi is better still.
 
Lesse here, to me, it depends on three things
1. How close are the BG's?
2. How many are there?
3. How fast are they approaching?

All are important, obviously. The farther out the Bg's were, the more confidence I'd have in a bolt or lever gun. The fewer there were, the more confidence I'd have in a bolt or lever gun. The slower they were moving, the more confidence I'd have in a blt or lever gun.

Personally, if there were 5 BG's coming from 150yds at a moderate speed, I'd feel fine with a boltgun.
 
Less than 100-150 yards with more than one BG who is armed with a rifle. It would be VERY bad if they had the ability to lay down supressive fire at close distance. Sub-50 yards would be very hairy. If you plan on using a manually operated arm defensively you had better be able to hit moving targets regularly in field conditions. YMMV of course.
 
A pump or lever can be "almost" as fast as an autoloader if you practice hard with it. But IMO, the big is is reloading. Magazine fed beats tube fed every time. If you can take your time to shoot and reload, any rifle will work (even a single shot); but if you hca to shoot and reload fast, the autoloader wins.
 
At 300 yards I know one Remington pump gun that can ruin your day. Belongs to my dad, he's killed a lot of game with it and its suprisingly accurate compared to other rifles. As far as firing an accurate second shot its just as fast as most auto loaders, you can even get a 10 shot magazine if you really want.

At 200 yards-250 I know a Marlin 336T in my safe can ruin your day too. Carried that for a number of years growing up.

At 400 yards (about my limit for an accurate one shot kill on game) my Savage 116 rules the roost.

At 50 yards.. gimmie my 223 AK and a 30 rounder. I'll be moving a lot, and might miss.
 
Bad Guys

It seems that another factor in the equation is their motivation. It seems, especially in the infinite"SHTF" threads, we tend to assign random baddies the same motivation and focus that is found in trained military professionals. In a given situation, a round from sight unseen impacting near one of their feet would be the universal sign for get the heck away. In that case, the scoped rifle would do fine because more than likely, they're going away. On the other hand, if they do show some purpose in continuing the approach and could return suppressive fire, then it seems that something with immediate and quick firepower with corresponding distance would be needed, like an FAL, M1A, or HK91. Didn't the Korean grocers use normal scoped bolt rifles effectively for crowd control in the '92 riots?
 
One of the big jokes around here, and on other boards, is that some guy with a curio & Relic piece, or a sporting rifle, is going to out gun an opfor guy with a modern rifle and lots of ammo. Guys, you have got to disabuse yourselves of the idea that just because the other guy is the enemy, he can't, or won't shoot, and does not have good equipment. Questioning his motivation is another thing that will get you killed.
 
No matter what sort of weapon you have, the only way you'd be able to outgun a trained group of foes with a modern assault rifles and grenades is by hook and crook. Tricks, dirty fighting, propane tanks rigged to explode alongside kerosene jugs, dogs attacking to distract. That sort of thing. That's the great lesson of the 20th century. The man who stands up and fights "like a man" is going to die quickly.

If your foes are just wild-eyed nogoodnicks, good tactical training and a sound mind on your part will give you an enormous advantage no matter what they're armed with. Especially if you know the turf. Run to a safe place, make sure they're back lit, and shoot them all. You could do it with a good .22 rifle.
 
Ability to see the enemy would count for more than the rifle choice. At dusk, I can't tell a tree stump from a deer at 75m, so the choice of rifle is immaterial. Having binocs or a scope would help a lot more than autoloading. I second magazine or clip loading, as manual dexterity goes away under stress and reloading tube magazines becomes very slow.
 
"Less than 100-150 yards with more than one BG who is armed with a rifle. It would be VERY bad if they had the ability to lay down supressive fire at close distance."

I spend 22 years as an Infanryman, and another 13 or so working in training and doctrine for the military.

What does "Lay down fire" mean? Can anyone define it?

And how can "suppressive fire" be effective if it's not on target?

Firing a lot of rounds doesn't mean you're getting a lot of hits. "Suppressive fire" only works IF you're killing people -- rounds that are missing, directed in the wrong direction, or snapping over head don't suppress.
 
Depends more on the situation than the range.
If you the BG is ten meters away and I have my Savage pointed at him from behind, I win.
 
Guy, it's the user, not the tool. Given, some tools are better than others.

Vern,
"Suppressive fire" only works IF you're killing people
Click to expand...

Really? So, if I was dropping HE rounds from my M-252 mortar, causing the opposing force to keep their heads down while their world shook, and they chanted obscenities and prayers, they wouldn't be suppressed? I mean, the manuals would define the range at which my mortar rounds would "kill or suppress" in terms or probabilities, ie- 90% kill or suppress within 75 meters of point of impact.

Obviously someone in the Army thought killing was not necessarily the same thing as suppressing. If that is is the case, then it is possible to do the same thing with other weaponry.

"Lay down", in context, obviously means the same as "put out" or "engage with". No one said anything about using "lay down fire".

John
 
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