Question for big game hunters

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BCCL

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I'd like to get opinions from big game hunters, on a discussion I may be having soon with some wildlife officials on a potential change to some hunting regulations.

Which of these do you believe would pose the biggest risk to other hunters in your area?

.12 gauge shotgun slug
.58 caliber black powder rifle
.45 caliber 6" barreled handgun

I know that ultimately it's the person using either, but given that, which might reach farthest to hit an unseen hunter?
 
How is it productive to rank these?

They are all potentially lethal, given the right circumstance...and every time there's an accident, there's a particular set of circumstances to go with it.

/Safety is no accident.
 
I agree desidog, but they are.

They are claiming the first two (long guns) are safe, while the third (handgun) is "to dangerous to allow it's use".
 
Odds are that the muzzle velocities of the 12-gauge and the .45 will be about the same, in the general vicinity of around 1,200 to 1,300 ft/sec. A heavier projectile will likely travel further.

What's the MV of the .58?
 
There is no question that the handgun poses the least risk to other hunters, homeowners, and any other person or thing in the vicinity. A bullet fired from a .45 handgun has less mass and is traveling much slower than a slug or BP rifle. That means it has less range unobstructed, has less momentum to carry through brush or other objects and much less destructive capacity if it does hit anything. Here is a quick comparison.

Cor-bon DPX 185 grain shot from 5" barrel has a MV of about 1075 feet per second.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/dpx_022305/
http://www.dakotaammo.net/Self-Defe...85gr-Self-Defense-DPX/DPX45185-20/200/Product

The saboted slug I use to hunt deer is the Winchester Platinum Hollowpoint is 400 grains and is traveling at 1700 fps. http://www.winchester.com/Products/...inum-tip-hollow-point-slug/Pages/default.aspx

That means the slug will fly 70% farther than the .45 before it hits the ground (it is my understanding that saboted slugs have bascially the same aerodynamics as a pistol buller) if fired parralel to the ground. It also has nearly 3.5 times the momentum of the .45acp and 5.4 times the energy at the muzzle. At 100 yards it still has nearly 5 times the energy of the .45acp.
 
Weight is not the issue...BC is...two projectiles fired at the same velocity, with the same BC but different weight will follow the same trajectory.

The 3 firearms mentioned usually fire bullets with piss poor BC so they are not able to travel that far.

Even a simple .243 rifle bullet is much more dangerous where range is the concern.

A Brenneke 600 gr. 3" Black Magic slug leaves the barrel at 1600 fps but its aerodynamic is so bad that it shed velocity very very quickly and drop like a rock past 100 yards.....I suspect a 44 Mag slug fired from a long barreled revolver is more dangerous, trajectory wise.
 
saturno_v said:
Weight is not the issue...BC is...two projectiles fired at the same velocity, with the same BC but different weight will follow the same trajectory.

The 3 firearms mentioned usually fire bullets with piss poor BC so they are not able to travel that far.

Even a simple .243 rifle bullet is much more dangerous where range is the concern.

A Brenneke 600 gr. 3" Black Magic slug leaves the barrel at 1600 fps but its aerodynamic is so bad that it shed velocity very very quickly and drop like a rock past 100 yards.....I suspect a 44 Mag slug fired from a long barreled revolver is more dangerous, trajectory wise.
Click to expand...
Yes, BC is important, but as you stated, the BC of the three projectiles in the OP are all poor. Taking a look at the Cor-bon data in the link I posted, the saboted slug is going to be traveling faster than the .45 acp at all reasonable ranges. For example, at 100 yards the Winchester slug is traveling at over 1400 fps while the .45 is traveling 946 fps. According to my estimation (using Excel and polynomial regression) the slug will be traveling nearly 1200 fps at 200 yards while the published data for the .45 lists only 860 fps at 200 yards. (I've done the same kind of modeling with rifle bullets at longer ranges and can reproduce published data nearly exactly).

Of the three listed in the op, the handgun is by far the least dangerous.
 
Well saboted slug are a different animal.

I do not have experience with them but they are fairly aerodynamic (some are basically spitzer bullets) and quite fast (2000+ fps are not uncommon).

So yes, I quite suspect they are much more dangerous than regular rifled slugs or handgun bullets.
 
BCCL said:
.....discussion I may be having soon with some wildlife officials on a potential change to some hunting regulations.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the same argument we had with the Iowa DNR when hunters asked for a handgun deer season. DNR opposed it and were eventually bypassed when hunters got the legislature and governor to pass it into law. Strange thing about these political bureaucracies, often too interested in protecting their turf than doing what's right for the people that pay their wages.
 
Weight is not the issue...BC is...two projectiles fired at the same velocity, with the same BC but different weight will follow the same trajectory.

The 3 firearms mentioned usually fire bullets with piss poor BC so they are not able to travel that far.

Even a simple .243 rifle bullet is much more dangerous where range is the concern.

A Brenneke 600 gr. 3" Black Magic slug leaves the barrel at 1600 fps but its aerodynamic is so bad that it shed velocity very very quickly and drop like a rock past 100 yards.....I suspect a 44 Mag slug fired from a long barreled revolver is more dangerous, trajectory wise.
Click to expand...

With all due respect saturno_v BC is not the only issue, mass does matter also to some extent. This has come up in the past and we both disagreed with one another on this in another post. However at that time I could not remember a very important piece of military testing where bullet mass was tested. Before I post this link I want to ask you one question. What bullet has a higher BC a .30 cal 172gr FMJBT that was used for the US GI browning MG (30-06), or a .458 cal 500gr bullet? Read this in its' entirety then ask yourself if that .30 cal bullet will accomplish the same feat as the .458 bullet did at the same distances.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

As to the question posed by the OP I would say the .58 cal Black powder rifle. Especially if one is shooting a Maxi Ball or Great Plains style projectile.
 
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There was an article in American Hunter (Sept. 2009 issue?) that was a study done about shotgun slug only deer hunting areas. The premise of the article was that areas that allowed shotgun slugs but not long rifles were only under the illusion that they were safer as shotgun slugs can ricochet quite a distance. It looks like others may have reported on it previously (Guns Magazine).

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_53/ai_n20512665/

With that in mind I would say the order you have them listed in is the order of "most dangerous" to "least dangerous" but I haven't hunted with any of them (only standard rifles).
 
With all due respect saturno_v BC is not the only issue, mass does matter also to some extent. This has come up in the past and we both disagreed with one another on this in another post. However at that time I could not remember a very important piece of military testing where bullet mass was tested. Before I post this link I want to ask you one question. What bullet has a higher BC a .30 cal 172gr FMJBT that was used for the US GI browning MG (30-06), or a .458 cal 500gr bullet? Read this in its' entirety then ask yourself if that .30 cal bullet will accomplish the same feat as the .458 bullet did at the same distances.
Click to expand...

I wonder if someone ever tried a 30 cal bullet test at the same distance..

However, the problems is not much the remaining energies at extreme distances but rather the trajectories...2 bullets of identical BC and different weight fired at the same velocity will have the same trajectories...clearly not the same emergy left...

A big flat or round nosed .458 slug will drop like a rock making extreme long range damage more difficult.
 
Find the BC on each projectile, plug in the velocity to the equation, a good exterior ballistics program will punch you out an answer in terms of which drops the most at range and which drops the least. The one that drops the least will give you the answer as to which one will travel farther. Only variables are BC and muzle velocity.
 
Find the BC on each projectile, plug in the velocity to the equation, a good exterior ballistics program will punch you out an answer in terms of which drops the most at range and which drops the least. The one that drops the least will give you the answer as to which one will travel farther. Only variables are BC and muzle velocity.
Click to expand...

Exactly right McGunner....
 
I've actually written my own exterior ballistics program in the past, circa 1985, on a Timex Sinclair computer with a 16K plug in memory, later adapted to a Tandy Color 3 computer. :D It calculated drop, velocity loss at range, time to distance, energy and velocity at distance, standard deviation of the shot string, etc.. I wrote a separate program that calculated trajectory given a zero range. Then, a few years later, PCs got common and exterior ballistics programs got common. But, it was an educational experience. I've used a free program I downloaded, but I prefer my own. The freebee didn't calculate the standard deviations, just enter one velocity, not the string. I don't like going through that calculation by hand, but still can. :D The drop tables absolutely require a computer. You could use the equations, but it'd take you til next year to finish. :rolleyes:
 
Hey, I hunt a WMA in Texas, or have, didn't get to this year, that requires buckshot for hogs. Now, it is my thinking that with buckshot, you are more at peril from a POed wounded hog shot at, say, 40 yards than anyone would be at peril from a falling bullet. :rolleyes: No one ever said government was brilliant. Well, I never have, anyway. :rolleyes: The couple of times I got to hunt out there last year, I had my 9mm carry in a pocket, figured if I was being charged by a wounded hog, I'd prefer it to a load of 00 from my 10 gauge.
 
MCgunner said:
I've actually written my own exterior ballistics program in the past, circa 1985, on a Timex Sinclair computer with a 16K plug in memory, later adapted to a Tandy Color 3 computer. :D It calculated drop, velocity loss at range, time to distance, energy and velocity at distance, standard deviation of the shot string, etc.. I wrote a separate program that calculated trajectory given a zero range. Then, a few years later, PCs got common and exterior ballistics programs got common. But, it was an educational experience. I've used a free program I downloaded, but I prefer my own. The freebee didn't calculate the standard deviations, just enter one velocity, not the string. I don't like going through that calculation by hand, but still can. :D The drop tables absolutely require a computer. You could use the equations, but it'd take you til next year to finish. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I developed a spreadsheet model to calculate trajectories that allows changing of sight in distance, sight height, etc. I mostly shoot factory ammo, so my spreadsheet starts with the published velocities at the muzzle and various distances down range. This way the effect of BC is already incorporated into the velocity data. Sure, I could have used a ballistics program, but most of those start with BC which not all factory ammo publishes. Besides, I've always enjoyed basic physics and it's fun to do it yourself.

I'll revise my spreadsheet to start with BC and MV when I start reloading. Of course, that means I'll have to buy a chronograph.
 
Well, without a chronograph, you're sort of lost. :D You can verify factory ballistics with drop at range data from experimentation, but the chrony is cheap and effective. I'd like to have an Ohler, just not in my price range. They have all sorts of features I could use like the strain gauge, the acoustic target thing, whatever it's called, that catches the sound of the bullet at the target and shows you the group without even using a spotting scope. That's gotta be way cool. :D It will also back calculate a BC for you using data from that acoustic sensor. It would really be better, though, on a permanent private range. Setting all that stuff up at the club would be a hassle.

I've always envisioned my dream home in the country, indoor air conditioned shop at the back of a 3 car garage, and on the end, a loading and shooting room, slide the window open and there would be a rifle range, shooting bench INSIDE, maybe a sound baffled drum set up to shoot through, and an Ohler with all the whiz ban stuff to use. It don't cost to dream. :rolleyes:
 
Send out an invitation when you get your dream place - it sounds nice.

Yeah, I know I will need a chronograph at some point. I just built my spreadsheet to have some idea of how much bullet drop to expect at various ranges. I borrowed my FIL's Savage bolt shotgun for deer hunting and only had time at the range to verify how it was sighted in at 75 yards.

I had so much fun playing around with the spreadsheet that I replicated it for all my long guns.

Send out an invitation when you get your dream place - it sounds nice.
 
If you have to hunt with a shotgun, avoid the large diameter buckshot...too great a spread for a sure kill. Go for #1 buck...that will give you 16 .30-cal pellets in a standard 2-3/4" 12-ga shell...a far denser pattern.

After a lot of testing of various small arms, this is what my Special Forces unit came up with for our favored weapon for house-to-house fighting.:what:
 
I may be wrong here but I am guessing the charge is handgun hunting in a area that is posted shotgun or muzzleloader only. In that case no matter what the potential danger of each firearm is. A written rule has been violated. There are several public areas here in Kansas that are posted this way. It does not matter if I agree or not but if I want to hunt there I have to play by there rules. I don't like to see anyone get a ticket but if the area your hunting is limited use it generally isn't a secret.
 
Everybody is getting way to technical on this. The 45 with a 6" barrel is going to pose the biggest threat in the long run. It will be harder to control and the bullet BC will be greater than the others.
 
jbkebert said:
I may be wrong here but I am guessing the charge is handgun hunting in a area that is posted shotgun or muzzleloader only. In that case no matter what the potential danger of each firearm is. A written rule has been violated. There are several public areas here in Kansas that are posted this way. It does not matter if I agree or not but if I want to hunt there I have to play by there rules. I don't like to see anyone get a ticket but if the area your hunting is limited use it generally isn't a secret.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure where you get the idea that someone has been charged with violating a regulation. The OP stated that he will be speaking with officials regarding potential changes to regulations.
 
Sorry I scanned the post to quickly. I read a potential change as a potential charge. Quick to assume because I have had a similar conversation with some folks here in KS. They got caught hunting with arms other than what was posted as legal equipment. My apologizes to the OP.
 
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