Question for trainers: why multi-day courses?

[NWGlocker]

Hi everyone. Sorry for the long post but this has been on my mind. When I say "multi-day" I should have said, "why weekend-long courses"?

I'm still think I'm a noob and I do appreciate the importance of training. I've taken a weekend-long basic defensive handgun course and am really looking forward to taking the MAG-40. My goal is to try and take a formal course once a year.

My question: why don't more trainers or training schools break up their classes? I think for reinforcement and to keep things fresh in the mind it would be more ideal -- at least for me and my schedule -- to go maybe once a week or every other week and spend a couple of hours at a time in a class. So instead of a 10 hour course on a weekend, I'd love to go for 3-4 hours once a week for 6 weeks.

I understand it's easier for people who need to travel long distances, or maybe it's hard to keep a class for such a long stretch of time. Believe me, I'm still looking around but I just want to ask in the meantime.

 

[jackpinesavages]

Well, what we end up with is a conflict of convenience, money concerns, and range availability;

A.) Convenience of a 1 day course in today's hectic society.

B.) Money concerns: More than 1 day usually means needing to get lodging somewhere, higher costs.

C.) Tying up/renting a range for a Sat/Sun. time slot is logistically difficult at best, and then it gets back into the money debate: 2 days of range rental goes into the course costs.

Ideally, I like to see folks coming to class with the quality and value mindset. However, in this Wal-Mart society it rarely happens; 60 minutes into the Class they are already mentally checked out, telling somebody about the greatest (cheapest) training deal they ever stole.

Great post.

My question: why don't more trainers or training schools break up their classes? I think for reinforcement and to keep things fresh in the mind it would be more ideal

 

[Sam1911]

Many great trainers are itinerant. They travel all over the country to bring what they know to as many people as possible, not just a small local group. Traveling and scheduling range space & lodging for multiple weekends just to get in 2-6 hours of teaching time absolutely kills the efficiency.

Your class fee isn't just paying for the time on the range, but all the trainer's preperation and travel time, and plane fare, and time to set it all up. You (and he) don't want to pay for that part of it more than once per class.

If you happen to live near a great trainer, s/he may very well split up a training course into multiple sessions, if they can do it at their home range.

 

[gallo]

I agree 100%. A 10 hour course broken into 3 weekends would be way more pedagogical than everything lumped into a 1 day course-- especially for beginners.

 

[Tim Burke]

If you happen to live near a great trainer, s/he may very well split up a training course into multiple sessions, if they can do it at their home range.

Exactly. For itinerant instructors, there is an economy of scale that favors 2 & 3 day classes.

For fixed facilities, there is a similar economy of scale that favors week long classes.

 

[Sam1911]

I agree 100%. A 10 hour course broken into 3 weekends would be way more pedagogical than everything lumped into a 1 day course-- especially for beginners.

Which makes the local trainer a better bet. A beginner can get a basic course from a decent local group spaced over a few weeks, for a reasonable price.

Paying $400-500 for a 2-3 day class with an advanced, well-known trainer is within reason for most folks, at least once a year or so.

Paying $1,500, each, for the same course because the trainer has to travel three weekends and rent range time for three weekends, etc., puts that right out of reasonable reach. Might as well travel to Gunsite for the week for not much more money.

 

[larry_minn]

While a multi day course might work out better for you..... The nearest training of any quality is just over 2 hrs away. So when I want to take a class I have to plan for 3 hrs each way. (you want to arrive early, have chance to grab snack, gear up, etc) In short the entire day is used. Normally classes start at 8am. Lets say its till noon. That means I get home @ 3pm. After getting up by 5am. (so likely I am tired)
Instead if its a full day course I can have supper/ evening and be done. Ideally a class every week would be better. I was a member of a club that shot every week. I was a much better shot for it.

I hope to do a multi day course this yr. As its out of state I will have travel, lodging, food, and lost wages. No way I could afford to fly in weekly, rent car, etc..

 

[NWGlocker]

Hard to get the perfect matchup between student schedules, trainer schedules, and facility schedules. The last part I hadn't thought about, so now it makes sense. I knew there were some good reasons. Thanks for the posts.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The most cost efficient is 1:1 training with a local instructor...assuming that they are actually qualified.

It takes less time to demonstrate, observe and correct a skill in that setting. They can also adjust the pace of instruction to how quickly you can absorb it. They can stop before you are over loaded and send you home to practice what you have learned so that you'll be ready to advance at the next meeting.

But are you willing to pay the same price for half a day as you would for a weekend class or for a couple of hours for the same as a one day class. You'd cover the same material and receive more personal attention, but would you pay the same price for 4 hours as you would for 16?

 

[bratch]

We have a local instructor who has taken a basic 2 day defensive handgun course and broke it into 4 4 hour courses Sunday night over the course of a couple months. It works great for the locals and tight budgets as you can spread the cost out. The downside for the instructor is most out of towners will not travel for a 4 hour class.

 

[Jeff22]

I think there is clearly a place for an 8 hr class focusing on a limited cirriculum using about 350 rounds. Such a class would probably be most practical for a local instructor teaching in his immediate area.

I've been going to firearms classes for almost 30 years, and most of them have been 2 or 3 days long. Most of the nationally active instructors charge $250 to $300 a day and require a minimum class size of 15 or more.

2 or 3 day classes work fairly well into my schedule. The 5 day classes I've been to were all instructor classes. If you have to travel, taking a class longer than 3 days really begins to increase the cost in lodging & other expenses, as well as using up lots of leave time from work.

 

[mortablunt]

Repetition really gets the ideas pounded in. It doubles the training time and lets people sleep on it. Also, it better justifies travelling for hours to reach the course.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think there is clearly a place for an 8 hr class focusing on a limited cirriculum using about 350 rounds. Such a class would probably be most practical for a local instructor teaching in his immediate area.

Since you have some experience attending training classes, let me ask this:

How much would you feel is a reasonable amount to pay for a one day class and how large a class would you expect?

 

[Owen]

In the case of rifle classes, don't forget the half-day of getting everyone's gear sorted out/zeroed.

 

[9mmepiphany]

In the case of rifle classes, don't forget the half-day of getting everyone's gear sorted out/zeroed.

Which no one wants to pay for, but is somehow more acceptable during a two day class.

I always felt sorry for folks who sit through a 2-3 hour introduction and safety lecture before some classes.

Gunsite takes over two hours just collecting payments and signing the liability releases...but, it is a 5 day class

 

[Averageman]

When you teach at some point you have 30% who "Get It" 30% who are on the cusp and 30% who are working hard to keep up and 10%.....lost in the trees.
Breaking gives you a chance as an instructor to take a break and evaluate where everyone is at.
At that point you can move around some training partners and put the stropng with the weak and begin again.
Using multiple days you can break in to study groups at night and also avoid overload.
My experiance as an instructor was primarily in a Military enviroment that was highly competative and very motivated. Everyone wanted to do well, you just have to adapt a bit to them and keep them focused and moving forward.

 

[Owen]

Nobody wants to pay for it, but it always seems like in a class of 20 there are two or three people get a zero, can't figure out what to do with their sling, etc.

Its frustrating for the more experienced shooters, but its also something that needs to be done, or those student will get NOTHING out of the class.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It's no different that getting folk's handgun gear adjusted on their belts.

I mostly work with new shooters...by choice...so my expectations aren't real high, but then I'm not as frustrated either when I have to explain basic things.

The most eye opening was a client who thought cartridges were loaded into the magazine bullet first. I say eye opening, because his train of logic...he was an engineer...wasn't flawed, from his level of knowledge about handguns. It did explain that old H&K ad

 

[locnload]

With peoples work schedules, family needs, and other responsibilities, it can be difficult to get a group of people together at the same time and place for a day or two. Break that up into several shorter sessions and you will surely have a few who will miss parts of it. Here is an idea one of our local training organizations uses that I think warrants consideration. I believe for beginners they do one or two days that covers the classroom and range training to assure students can safely handle a firearm. They add some basic concealed carry tatics and skills as well as focus on mindset. Their classes are a bit expensive compared to other trainers doing small classes, and you are required to buy your ammo from them, but they have their own indoor and outdoor range, and classrooms. The bonus is that they do frequent "tactical skills" workshops, and if you have taken one of their main classes you are able to attend their workshops at little to no cost. It gives people a chance to get the basics, do some individule practice, then build their skills as they have time with the short workshops.

 

[Jeff22]

In answer to 9mmephiphany's question above:

If you're just a local guy without any national reputation, and you're teaching a beginning level class, then you could probably charge $100 to $150 for an 8 hr class, shooting 250 to 350 rounds.

One instructor can only keep track of 5 or 6 shooters on the line at once, unless working with an experienced group. But, it you had two relays of six shooters, that could work.

A LOT depends on the level of experience of your shooters. Brand new shooters are often careless with where their finger is and where their muzzle is pointed. And sometimes experienced shooters who should certainly know better have the same problems . . .

(Almost all of my instructional experience in the last 30 years has been training cops (in-service or in the police academy) or military (as a CATM instructor in the ANG for the last 10 years of my military career). Years ago I did some basic firearms training and requalification for private security officers but I haven't done that since 2002 or so. 20+ years ago I helped in a few new shooter clinics at my IPSC club. I've never gone into business for myself as an instructor)

 

[Jeff22]

There's a couple of local guys around here who do basic level firearms instruction.

I know both of them a little bit. Both are proficient shooters. I don't know how they are as instructors, and their resume of classes attended is pretty thin.

They're charging $50 + range fees for 4 hr blocks of instruction. They shoot 200-250 rnds, depending upon the block of instruction.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

The first morning of any class is dedicated to running the simplest of drills making sure the students know the dangerous end and don't sweep each other.

If you are are above this level the first morning is essentially worthless. Additionally, some doofus will need to "zero" his $2k rifle, and waste another hour. If he is not there, the instructor will spend an hour trying to figure out who he is.

Find an instructor that really knows how to shoot, and train with the same friends or one on one. Otherwise you will waste a ton of time.

If you want to train once a week, google some drills and run them yourself you will get much more out of it than waiting for some instructor to walk down the line and tell you to move your thumb a bit.

 

[CJ]

Funny, I just complete a half-day course with a local instructor, mostly because all of the other courses were multi-day, and I just can't get away for consecutive days. One of my suggestions was exactly what you are indicating: have an advanced course, maybe once a month, with practice homework.

I can see that many people would prefer to get it all done with at once, but I also think there might be a market for the other approach.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

We offer modular scheduling for all of the courses that we run frequently. It is quite sinple to do. Students can take susequent lessons at their convenience. We also offer one on one coaching, and run weekly "study group" nights where we help students continue their development as shooters and/or get help getting situated with new gear or tweek equipment set-ups.