Question: lever vs bolt actions in military context

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Winchester was actively seeking military contracts for the 1895, and made some inroads, yet even his design genius couldn't produce a lever-action rifle that was substantially superior, or even fundamentally equal to, the basic bolt-action rifle.

Uh sorry, but Winchester was not a design genius by any stretch of the imagination and more importantly; he was DEAD twenty years before any of this took place!

Lever rifles have, at best, slightly more primary extraction power than the straight pull bolt designs that were adopted around the turn of the last century

It's just not true! There is nothing inherent in the design that prevents you from beefing up extraction to satisfy a military board. In fact, the BLR has the same extraction principle as the BAR - are you going to suggest the BAR has faulty extraction and couldn't satisfy a military board?

It should be pretty evident that if roughly 50 nations around the world know about your rifles and designs and you make offers to those nations to produce lever-action rifles for them, and EVERY ONE OF THEM turns you down in favor of a bolt action rifle, it should tell you that more than just a few military people felt that the inherent design of the lever action was unsuitable for military purposes.

Or, it might tell you that military boards then, as now, are going to stick with the status quo. The Mauser brothers ushered Europe into the age of the bolt action rifle and no military board on earth was going to look into any explore any other option.

Keith
 
Or, it might tell you that military boards then, as now, are going to stick with the status quo. The Mauser brothers ushered Europe into the age of the bolt action rifle and no military board on earth was going to look into any explore any other option.

But... they did. That, or we're all imagining the M1, FN49, CETME, FAL, and the current crop of uberpuppy blasters. :)

I think a lot of us think in terms of rifle specialists... what is the best that we can have? What's the best solution, the most technically elegant weapon with which to give our troops?

Military logisticians dont -- and moreover shouldn't think that way.

For instance, let's go back to 1955. If I can make 5 FALS with the production resources it would take to make 1 M14, the military would be best served standardizing on the FAL even if I personally think the M14 is a better rifle. The slightly better trigger and sights don't make up for the logistics and production problems.

Same thing in this context. Sure, the lever action could in theory have been redesigned to work better than the Mausers then in service. But if you were going to all that trouble... why not develop a self loader to solve the problem entirely?

Oh.... we did. :)

I'm not saying that leverguns aren't great, or even that the more refined lever guns then in use wouldn't have worked in a military context at that time and place. Or even that all change is bad and we should stay with what works, like a nice solid reliable Brown Bess.

What I am saying is that LOGISTICALLY the resources that would have been necessary to make those changes would have been better served in other avenues.. and in fact, were.

-K

(in comparison to today's times, I believe it's similar to the XM-8 project now. Sure, the HK system is good. Better in a lot of ways that the AR system. But I don't believe its better ENOUGH to justify the expenditure. Same idea.)
 
Hi, guys,

Everyone seems to be missing one very important point. In the olden days it was (believe it or not) actually expected that a solidier would clean his rifle. That meant being able to at least "field strip" the rifle. Has anyone here ever actually taken down a Winchester 1886 or 1895 or 1894 or Savage 1899? Ever tried to do it in the field?

Believe me, removing a bolt and running a patch through the bore is much easier than having a dozen small pieces laying around the place and needing a vise and three hands to reassemble the rifle.

Yes, some countries considered the firepower of the lever action important enough to adopt it temporarily, and both Winchester and Savage had salesmen who could convince a statue that their rifles were the greatest. But the lever action was almost always considered a temporary stop-gap. The Turks used the Winchester with good effect against the Russians, but they soon dropped it in favor of a bolt action.

Jim
 
But... they did. That, or we're all imagining the M1, FN49, CETME, FAL, and the current crop of uberpuppy blasters.

Umm, that was sixty years later... In 1895, there was no reason a lever gun couldn't have been everything the bolt action was - IF a military board had asked for the design changes required to turn it from a sporting rifle to a military rifle.

A lever gun has several advantages over a bolt gun and several drawbacks. Yet, the drawbacks; extraction, easy cleaning, etc, (as pointed out by others) are purely engineering features that could be changed quite readily.

I'm not arguing that a Winchester 95 or Savage 99 would be the perfect military rifle of the era. I'm arguing that the basic lever gun would have been adaptable as a military rifle and if those changes had been made - would have been an improvement over the bolt guns of the period.

Hell, we still had people arguing in favor of the bolt guns (against the Garand) at the beginning of WWII! And that prejudice was not limited to our own military boards, look at the Germans, Brits, etc, who used bolt guns right through the war.

Keith
 
Good points Kieth, but M-95 Winchesters are a lot more expensive to build than a tubular-receivered boltgun, a major military logistical consideration, and they're already heavy. Beefing it up to make it more suitable for military purposes would have made it prohibitively heavy. M-95 muskets (The full-stocked military configuration.) are heavier than a Trapdoor Springfield. M-86's are also pretty massive actions, and the only other full-pressure action offered (Savages aside.) before the .308-capable modern-metallurgy-ed M-94 A.E. was the th M-71, a direct M-86 derivative.

They also have two-piece stocks, a notorious sticking point in early arms design-by-committee, the Lee-Enfield and Lebel rifles notwithstanding.

The K.I.S.S principle is an issue of primary importance. While the 1876 Winchester design, a HUGE, beefed up toggle-link action derived from the '73, is pretty simple, the '95 action, like the '94 and the '86, emphatically is not. Many people take leverguns to a gunsmith once a year for a detail-strip-and-clean because of their mechanical complexity. I've disassembled and re-built my '94, and can see why people would do this. The turnbolt is inherently simpler, with fewer parts.

The only levergun design that addresses the primary extraction issues is the Winchester Model 88, a lever-operated version of the M-100 autoloader. It's essentialy a lever-actuated turn-bolt design that is fully capable of withstanding whatever pressure ammo might be required, but it's a moot point, as the M-88 didn't arrive until well after the military advent of autoloaders. My '94 sometimes has sticky extraction with factory ammo, requiring thwacks on a springy lever. Palm-whacking a turnbolt handle applies worm-gear style force, a lot greater available mechanical advantage.

Straight-pulls like the Mannlicher M-95 use a helical camming motion to rotate their turning boltheads, but that's less direct, and not as powerful as yanking up the end of a boltknob. Most other straight-pull actions, the Lee and the Colt Lightning being excepted, use a similar set-up, and the Lee and the Lightning rely on pure muscle, a design issue that the large-frame (.45-70 class.) Lightnings never really overcame to the detriment of their sales. Modern straight-pull autos like the FAL and the Tokarev SVT-38/40 use enough brute force from their gas operation to pull through extraction grooves, making this a non-issue for autoloaders. However, if a case gets stuck on the way in because of deformity, like what happened to my Remington 7400 auto, you're out of luck. The Remington's a turning-head design, but had such a dinkum bolt handle that I had to pound the gunbutt on the bench to pull the jammed case out, as I couldn't get enough of a grip on the handle. Whacking my as-new rifle on the bench to free it made me wince, and doing that in a firefight is not an option, which is one of the reasons I really favor Garand/M-14 actions that have a turn-bolt style design.

Autoloaders with bottom-feed magazines pretty much put paid to the prone-use argument, making it time-contextual, although the Garand still allows such use, the only military auto that does. I'm not sure how relevant the argument is, but if I was a soldier, the ability to kiss dirt under fire while shooting back would be high on my list. Prone use of a levergun wouldn't be hard anyhow, merely requiring twisting the rifle, but a comittee might could object to the neccessity of un-shouldering a rifle to cyle it.

The inherent conservative-ness of military trials and procurement boards is a valid consideration. Mandating magazine cut-offs as an attempt to conserve ammo is a good example, and that grew out of an initial resistance to repeaters for the same reason. Committees are just that: committees. What they conclude doesn't neccessarily make sense outside of the committee. Arms committees notoriously have little contact or empathy with the common soldier despite the military origins of their members.

Just my rambling $.02. I'm all over the place, like usual. :)
 
Hrmm.. was it here or in a book I read recently that one of the main selling points of the Krag at the time of its adoption was that it could be topped off like a levergun via the side loading port?

Regardless.. it wasn't a 60 year gap and the autos magically appeared on the scene. We had functioning semi-autos before the end of the 19th century in the C96 Mauser (pistol/carbine), and Browning's little autopistols were just starting to develop as well. The Pederson device for '03s was around to see use in WWI, and the M1 was under development likewise by around 1919 as I recally. Sure it took twenty years to get right (that's gov't arsenals for ya, I guess.. :p ) -- but it was an actively pursued course of research through a good deal of the turnbolt era.

Sure, a lever gun COULD have been redesigned to meet a military board's requirements... but why? Mauser-based turnbolts already met all those requirements off the shelf. For all the R&D it would take to get the levergun meeting spec... might as well just throw your money into the REAL next leap, self-loading.

And finally, even if we HAD gone that route... what would we have really gained? What's the point? Slightly faster working of the action (as long as you ain't prone). Not worth it to me I don't think, given that Brits with Enfields were reported to shoot just about as fast as our guys with M1s. Turnbolts aren't slow by any stretch of the imagination, not with skilled users.

Other advantages... the ability to top off the magazine? Again.. even presuming we managed to keep that advantage while changing things to meet 1900 milspec, we tried that with the Krag. We dropped it 'cause the clip charging system worked better.

It's not that leverguns are bad little guns -- they're GREAT..and have a handiness that was envied even in the middle of WWI. It's just that the economics and logistics weren't there at the time.

-K
 
Sure, a lever gun COULD have been redesigned to meet a military board's requirements... but why?

Why not? I'm only arguing that the lever gun could have satisfied military requirements of the era, not that it would have been some great leap forward. It would have had a few advantages and a few disadvantages.

Personally, give a choice between a Mauser and a Winchester 95, I'd have probably taken the Mauser, though it would be tough to choose.... Given a choice between something like the BLR and a Mauser and I'd certainly take the BLR.
And the BLR might more closely resemble what a lever gun run through a military board would be - a more robust camming action, better extraction, detachable magazine, etc.
And doubtless, they'd make other changes - it would have to disassemble and clean easier, etc.

And as far as shooting prone, I think that's a theoretical flaw rather than a real one. You certainly can work the lever from a prone position and without tilting the gun - try it!

Keith
 
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