Questions about .223 Resizing

[elChupacabra!]

Hey guys, I've done a couple searches but I haven't been able to find the answers to a couple of questions I have regarding .223 resizing, so I was hoping yall could help me out.

I've just begun reloading (like within the last 3 days), although I've been reading up, collecting components, tools and the like since Christmas (just moved into a new place with enough space to put up a bench). Although I will eventually reload .45ACP, 9mm, 40S&W and 7.62x39mm, I'm starting off with .223 Rem. I'm getting used to the various steps in the process and seeing how they actually feel and work as opposed to what I've just read about them, and while alot of it is much easier than I had anticipated, there are a couple of new questions I have.

A while back I got a Hornady Lock n Load Comparator set and digital calipers and figured I would determine the headspace length for my rifle (custom AR with a DPMS match stainless heavy 20" barrel). I took around 20 pieces of brass that I knew had last been shot from my gun and measured them all and settled on 1.458" average headspace length. Based on what I read, I figured I needed to set my RCBS FL resizing die to bump the shoulder back to 1.456" to give me that .002" FL resize, enough to function but not so much as to overwork the brass.

So on Saturday I deprimed 20 cases, checked them in the calipers again (regularly checking to make sure the calipers are still properly zeroed) and confirmed that my brass still measured 1.458" (give or take maybe .0005" - .001" for some cases). I sprayed all the brass in the loading block with Hornady One Shot case lube, giving a quick spray across all cases at the 45 degree angle they recommend, turning the block, doing again, etc. until all sides had a light coat of lube. I let it sit for a minute, resized my first case in the die adjusted per the instructions in the RCBS die box, pulled it out and took a reading. For the first piece, it now read 1.461" - .003" LONGER than before I resized it! I repeated this with another case and found the same thing. I then measured some cases that had been lubed but not resized and found them to all measure about 1.461," so I concluded that the lube had apparrently added .003" to the headspace length of the cases but I hadn't actually done anything in the die. I proceeded to dial down my FL die until I could get a reading of 1.456" after resizing. Here are my questions:

1) Is 0.003" reasonable for the length added by the lube? Is that too much lube? I don't think I'm getting oil dents but it's hard to tell...
2) When I resize, should I try to get my brass' headspace length to 1.459" to take into account the lube on there, or should I still go for 1.456"?
3) How much variation in headspace length is acceptable? Some of my brass comes out at 1.455"-1.457" - is this safe / normal?
4) Will I see accuracy suffer if the resizing is too much / with too much variation?

I know this is a long question but I really appreciate yalls help.

Note: I'm reloading on a Lee Challenger Breech-Lock press with the removable bushings for the dies, for what it's worth.

 

[Walkalong]

.003 difference is nothing to worry about.

If you had "dents" from the lube, you would know.

If you are using mixed brass it is common for you to get some spread. On the softer brass the shoulder will stay pretty much put where the die pushes it back to. On the harder brass the shoulder will spring back more. This could be simply a difference in brands as well as how many times the brass has been fired. The new brass will be pretty soft compare to 5 times fired brass which is getting to be "work hardened at this point" The fired brass will spring back more than the new soft brass. Now mix up some different brands of brass that start out with varying degrees of softness and say some are once fired, some thrice fired, and some fired 5 or 6 times. No way will the shoulders all be at the same place when run through the sizer together.


Experiment:

Take 10 new cases and size them. Take 10 5X fired cases and size them with out changing how far your sizer is screwed in. Then measure them all.

 

[rcmodel]

When you resixe a rifle case, the excess brass has to go somewhere. That somewhere is forward.

The lube just allowed the case to slip forward in the die easier.

I would suggest if you are going to use spray lube, don't do it with them standing in a loading block.

The thickest, and hardest to resize part of the case is down near the head area.
(The part covered up / mask off by the loading block)

That is where case lube is most important.

I'd lay them on an old newspaper, or throw them in an old mixing bowl.
Spray them, rattle them around awhile, then spray them again.

Wipe excess lube off the neck & shoulder with your fingers as you pick each one up to size it.

rcmodel

 

[elChupacabra!]

Thanks for the quick replies.

As far as dents go, there may be a couple but I'm not sure whether or not they were produced from the rounds ejecting from my rifle or the lube... they are very small and there is usually only one on a piece of brass, if it has one at all, and that is up at the bottom of the shoulder.

Regarding the brass I'm using, I do have mixed brass but so far I've only worked with Lake City brass from 2003 - 2006 headstamps. I bought it as Black Hills blue box so I believe it has now been fired twice - once as a NATO round and a second time from my rifle. The military crimp has been removed from all of it by Black Hills, I presume.

 

[rcmodel]

If you are getting lube dents, you will see them right out of the sizing die.

Firing them will iron them out so they won't be there when you reload them the next time.

rcmodel

 

[elChupacabra!]

So if I'm understanding yall correctly, the variation between 1.455" - 1.457" after resizing is normal and not to be worried about. If I'm actually sizing the brass further than that due to the lube (maybe 1.453" - 1.455" clean as opposed to 1.458" before sizing clean), that's not enough to be a problem or worry about either. Do I have it right or should I adjust my dies a little bit more?

Thanks again.

 

[rcmodel]

Forget the length! measurements!

Just take the upper off your AR and size them until the bolt will close normally on all of them with very slight or no resistance.

Can't get no better then that.

BTW: It will help to take the ejector & spring out of the bolt so you can actually "feel" whats going on.

rcmodel

 

[elChupacabra!]

Rcmodel,

Ok, I can do that - I was working based off the measurements since I had read several recommendations to resize to around .002" less than the pre-sized headspace length in order to save the brass from unneccessary working, but I hadn't considered using the rifle itself as my headspace gague. I'll give that a try and see how what I've done already stacks up.

Thanks again for the helpful advice!

 

[Bullet]

elChupacabra!

You need a RCBS Precision Mic to make your measurements -

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=477756&t=11082005

Take a fired case and measure it with the mic, then adjust your sizing die to size the case .003 less than the fired case, again using the mic to make the measurement. I believe that the kind and amount of lube used can effect differences in how much the case will be sized too. I use imperial sizing wax for 223 and find it to give consistent results.

 

[30Cal]

The expander ball is dragging inside the case mouth--this pulls the shoulder forward. If the brass squeals on the way out of the die, then you can rest assured that you're pulling the shoulder.

Try lubing the inside of the case neck with a pencil.

I'm not a fan of One Shot. I use Imperial and drag a finger over the case mouth every second or third case.

 

[Walkalong]

I use a carbide button on my .223 sizer. That helps a lot, but it can pull the shoulder forward if you are not careful.

Using a bushing type sizer fixes it completely, but you have to be more careful with neck thickness if you do it that way.

Just gauge all your sized brass and it will catch the odd one that is out of whack. Size it again with plenty of lube (Imperial Sizing Die Wax) and it will be good to go.

use Imperial and drag a finger over the case mouth every second or third case

Good advise

 

[RustyFN]

I let it sit for a minute, resized my first case in the die adjusted per the instructions in the RCBS die box, pulled it out and took a reading. For the first piece, it now read 1.461" - .003" LONGER than before I resized it!

That is why you always want to resize your brass before you trim it. I use Hornady One Shot also and found the easiest way for me was to put 100 or so cases in a large ziplock bag and spray a couple of shots in the bag. Close the bag and mix them around in there for a couple of minutes. Let them dry and then go to it. Make sure you let them dry or you will stick a case. Also make sure the can is shaken very good or you will just spray the alcohol and not the lube on the case, when it dries there won't be any or much lube and you could stick a case. Welcome,
Rusty

 

[Bullet]

elChupacabra!

After rereading your first post I believe that as you resize your case it will grow in length when measured from the shoulder at first as the resizing die starts to resize your case. This just means that you don’t have the die screwed in far enough. As you screw the die down further the case will be sized to where the measurement from the shoulder will be reduced but the OAL will be longer. If you have more lube on some cases than others the ones with more lube will be resized more than the others. I doubt the lube is your problem and believe what your seeing is normal when the die is set to far out, to where sizing is just starting.

2) When I resize, should I try to get my brass' headspace length to 1.459" to take into account the lube on there, or should I still go for 1.456"?

Wipe the lube off after you resize and then measure to get 1.456 or 1.455 if these are for a semi-auto.

 

[elChupacabra!]

All,

Thank you again for your continued advice, I think yall have answered my questions. After wiping the lube off, I find that I'm now resizing down to about 1.454" - 1.455", which I suppose is a thousandth or two too short, but better that than too long. I may adjust my die out a little bit, but I'm not sure its necessary.

I'll definitely take that advice about lubing the cases in a ziploc bag. Currently I'm not hearing any squealing when I pull the case out of the die, it comes right out just fine so I don't think I'm dragging the expander ball on the neck, but I'll be sure to give the inside of the neck a touch more lube just to be sure. I think that first 1.461" was because I hadn't adjusted the die down far enough AT ALL - it now comes out a pretty good 1.455" - 1.457" with no problems (before wiping the lube off).

Also, for what it's worth, I currently resize first, then trim, debur and chamfer after. (I use the Lee case trimmer and a cordless drill and, although I haven't used any other system, I think this works just dandy for the small investment!)

Thanks again for sharing your wisdom.

 

[rcmodel]

If you using One-Shot like you said, and spray them in a mixing bowl like I suggested earlier, enough of them will get lube inside the neck to keep the expander ball lubed.

Every case neck doesn't have to have lube in it to do the trick.

rcmodel

 

[snuffy]

Gentlemen; I think some here have misunderstood what elchupacabra is talking about. But then maybe I don't understand either.

He has a Hornady comparator, which is used to measure cartridge headspace. I'm not totally sure just how it is used, but it measures from the case head to the datum line on the shoulder. it does NOT measure overall case length or trim-to-length. I almost bought the Hornady set-up, but elected to get the RCBS precision mic. The Hornady uses your caliper to read the amount of shoulder set back you're achieving when you full length resize your brass. The RCBS mic is cartridge specific, so it's set for SAAMI minimum headspace at the zero mark. You can then measure fired brass from your rifle to determine what the fired headspace is, then push the shoulder back .003 to achieve a good fit and minimize case stretch.

I tried one-shot once many years ago. I ended up with a stuck case, and a mess all over my loading block. The remainder went into the trash! However, I don't think even that crap could result in the variations you're seeing in shoulder set back. The film is not thick enough to bother.

I too see variations with the RCBS mic when sizing brass, as much as you're seeing. As others have said, it's brass spring back, the variations are results of differing hardness. I shoot for a median of .003, if it's more, I don't worry about it, but if it's much less, it could result in not chambering easily in an AR.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Snuffy,

I think you hit the nail on the head - I'm using the Hornady comparator set in conjunction with my micrometer to read headspace to the datum line on a recently fired (from my rifle) cartridge, getting 1.458" median; then spraying with lube, getting 1.461" or so; then resizing, getting 1.455" - 1.457" or so, and then wiping the case and geting 1.454" - 1.456" or so. This is all before trimming and is NOT case overall length but is headspace length to the datum line.

My question was really, is this a good amount of resizing? I've always read to resize just .002" - .003" in order to maximize brass life, but since these are the very first cases I've ever actually resized, I'm not sure if the results I'm getting are consistent with what I should be getting and / or safe. Based on everyones responses though, I think I'm probably in the ballpark, as long as they will all chamber in my rifle with little or no resistance.

Also, based on responses about springback, I'm not as concerned as I was at first about the inconsistency of .001" - .003" (extreme spread) between some of my brass pieces; I was concerned that that might have an adverse effect on accuracy, but from the sounds of it, I'm thinking that it really isn't that big of a deal (since I don't shoot competition or anything like that).

If I've misinterpreted your advice, please let me know. Thanks again everybody.

 

[snuffy]

If I've misinterpreted your advice, please let me know. Thanks again everybody.

Nope, you got it!

What you are trying to achieve is minimum case stretch when the shell is fired. This nearly eliminates case head separations, and can result in no need to trim, or not as often. I must say, you've grasped the art of reloading quite well for a beginner. (I hate the noobe handle).

 

[elChupacabra!]

Snuffy,

Thanks for the kind words. As far as the extent of my grasp on the art of reloading, that is as of yet to be seen, as I will head out this weekend to fire my first set of load work-ups once I charge and seat these resized and primed rounds. Still, after 6 months of reading everything I can about reloading including tips and tricks like this one (using the comparator / resizing .002" - .003" to save the brass), I hope it's not for naught and I'm on the right track.

Still, no matter how much you read, it's a quite different thing entirely to actually DO it, and I really appreciate everyone's helpful advice as I try to understand the finer points that aren't necessarily spelled out explicitly in the literature. Experience counts for alot, so thanks for sharing yours.

 

[30Cal]

You're fired -vs- resized measurements look good.

 

[243winxb]

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