Questions from a non-hunter

[chris in va]

Sorry guys, this may piss off a few of you but it's not my intention, just trying to get some insight.

I don't hunt, never have and really never felt the urge either. Recently I moved to a more...hunter friendly area in VA. It seems the whole town hunts, and half the populace wears camo all year round.

Basically I just want to know what the draw is for hunting animals (and again, just a neutral question). I can understand wanting to do it for food needs, population control etc but at what point does it actually become 'fun'? My friend's 13 year old daughter is all excited to go hunting with her dad in KY, even though she's never shot a living thing before, and I suspect it may have negative consequences on her psyche (or maybe not!). She certainly enjoys shooting my 9mm carbine.

Many times I've seen these pictures of guys holding up a deer's head after the shot with a big cheesy grin on their face. I'm not sure I understand that either. If I were to shoot something, my mood would be extremely respectful and sombre, probably remorseful. I certainly could not bring myself to hunt merely for sport.

Lastly, at what point is there a crossover from where I am to becoming a 'hunter'? Is there something magical with the first kill that makes you want to do it again?

Thanks guys, replies should be interesting.

 

[Camp David]

I just want to know what the draw is for hunting animals.

Chris: It is very hard on a Message/Discussion board to flesh this point out completely... I also live in VA so I can speak first hand about it. Hunting is not the "kill" but that is certainly part of it... Hunting is about being out and about, the sound of the leaves, the hint of frost in the air, banter of squirrels in the morning, the aloneness of the deer stand, and the security of the gun in hand. Hunting is more categorized as a hobby than a sport; although the sport and skill elements of hunting remain. Killing is the end of the hunt, but not the only or best part. Ourdoorsmen like the outdoors, and the game that is present, and the sport of the hunt.

Whether one is in a duck blind at dawn, a deer stand at dusk, or in a turkey valley at noon, it is all the same: the hunt, the knowledge of the prey, the satisfaction of the hunt, and the skill of the kill; all combine to characterize hunting.

Some of my best hunts yielded no game; some of my best times outdoors as a hunter involved no kill.

So what is the attraction to hunting?

You ever go camping? You ever make a fire and stand around it in the evening, saving its warmth? Felt compelled by the fire like a primitive call from an earlier day? Hunting is like that... exactly!

 

[chris in va]

I guess I should have clarified, I could probably go turkey hunting. I *love* a good turkey. Unfortunately I understand it's one of the more difficult things you can do.

Thanks for the input CD, guess I never really thought about the natural aspects of it.

 

[pauli]

heh. i'm not a hunter, but i've contemplated the idea; most of the things that camp david list as upsides are in my list of downsides.

 

[Preacherman]

I agree that the outdoor life is part of the draw of hunting: but the killing itself is not something I've ever given much thought to. I don't trophy-hunt - I hunt for food. Did so in Africa, and do so here. I'm not into the whole philosophical thing of how hunting is such a manly activity... for me, it's a digestive thing!

 

[mustanger98]

From my own perspective, I just enjoy being out there. I've been hunting off and on since I was 8. I've been deer hunting regularly for the last six or seven years now and a lot of it is peace and quiet, the deer, the other animals I observe. If I didn't enjoy the outdoors, the wildlife, guns, what all else that goes into it, I probably wouldn't bother.

Most times I go out, I see deer. I rate that as success. If I kill a nice buck, that's icing on the cake, and really really good luck to be there at the right time. In my family, we eat what we kill, but luckily, we won't starve if I don't kill.

Those "big cheesy grins" on hunters' faces in photos, well, I guess that's just excitement at such good luck, or the culmination of so much work put in scouting, managing food plots, stand placement, etc.

Considering what all has been said describes why it's called "hunting", not "killing".

 

[esheato]

Considering what all has been said describes why it's called "hunting", not "killing".

You can say that again. I spend a lot more time hunting than I do killing.

For me, it's about getting out, and away from city living. Getting back to what's important. I like the quiet, the camaraderie with my family members, and being in the woods.

It's also somewhat of a game...pitting your wits and skill against an animal that should by all rights never lose. The food is great and is what you're there for...but it's really about the hunt. The preparation, the scouting, gathering information to have it all come together and see a gorgeous animal appear exactly where you predicted it would come from. Oddly enough, hunting isn't really about guns..the gun and shot are an extremely small part of the equation.

I hope this makes sense.

If you're still curious, find a responsible hunter in your area to show you the ropes. You never know, you might enjoy it.

Ed

 

[Oldnamvet]

All said about being out in the quiet with friends and alone with nature is so true. You take your place in nature to help things balance out. That is what game management is all about. Some people like to enhance the challenge. This is why some people hunt for specific deer based upon size, antlers, etc. Others make it more of a challenge by using a pistol, and others employ archery. Some people like to still hunt, moving quietly and trying to see the game before they see you - a very difficult skill to attain. For everyone there are special circumstances to make it enjoyable - even when you are cold, wet, stiff, and tired, and haven't seen anything all day. Sounds like we are all nuts, and maybe we are but I wouldn't change it for anything.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

-Tradition
-Family
-Time spent understanding the natural order of things
-Observing the wild
-Quiet
-Slow
-Comeraderie
-Quietly sustaining yourself in the elements long enough to see wild creatures
-A reason to walk around with a rifle you know you can shoot well
-A break from civilization
-Imposing a little civilization on the wild
-Venturing into the unknown
-The satisfaction of eating something that lived a free, wild life and had a VERY good chance of slipping right past you
-The magic of a patch of woods turning into a deer staring at you
-The heart-stopping drumroll of a flushed Grouse
-Conquering your shock to react and shoot quickly and accurately at the two experiences above
-Discovering a pattern in the behavior of a wild animal you can use to hunt it - a scrape, a bed, a trail, etc. (again - notice that discovering the pattern is still "hunting" - they usually still just breeze past you without your notice)
-Finding joy in the tiny Snickers bar tucked away in your hunting vest - from last season - after sitting in a stiff breeze mingled with snow pellets for 6 hours
-Knowing that you can humanely track, shoot, gut, drag, clean and butcher a stag - a skill humans have thrived upon for millenia
-Campfires
-Anticipation
-Satisfaction
-A tradition to pass on to my children

 

[ACP230]

Three years ago my sons and I were scouting the evening before the late turkey season.
We walked into a small field where we'd seen toms before and spotted five eagles circling above the woods on the other side.

We'd never have seen them if we hadn't been there scouting.
Lots things happen on the sidelines of hunting.
Some make memories that last as long, or longer, than the hunting itself.

Stuff my brother and I did while hunting grouse and deer 30 years ago still makes me grin.

 

[DT Guy]

All that philisophical stuff aside (not that it's irrelevant...) hunting is a gas! My first deer, last year at the age of 41, was one of the most exciting, memorable moments of my entire life.

We're talking vibrating in place, hear-pounding, shaking with excitement here. An absolute thrill...and strangely, it felt like something that was 'right' to do, like walking upright and breathing. I had never hunted before, but I realized in that instant that I had been built, bred, designed-whatever-to do so. Part of humanity, I think.


Larry

 

[Art Eatman]

I grew up in a mix of town and country; college teachers and farmers/ranchers in the family. I plowed behind a horse, as a kid. Worked cattle. Ran the woods since I was around seven. And now I'm 71+, with some 30 years of playing in the southwest Texas desert.

You can probably guess from my age that I've been in lots of discussions and arguments about guns and hunting and animal rights and all that stuff. Yup, BTDT.

For me, it's a package. I can sit around a campfire at hunt camp and sorta feel in tune with thousands of years of ancestors, the hunter-gatherers who were around before farming. There is the definite bonding that occurs with others who hunt, who also have the instinct to provide their own meat for their families. That instinct holds, by the way, even for those who've never thought of hunting, but who have the responsibility for others besides themselves. You can have a day job for the money to go out and buy meat, but you can also be a do-it-yourselfer and cut out the middleman.

There's the challenge in the hunt, itself: Bambi practices thinking like a deer for 365 days a year. His eyesight, hearing and sense of smell are far superior to HomoSap. And success in meeting any challenge of whatever sort brings a delightful adrenalin rush.

My father once commented that killing the biggest buck in the pasture took work. First, you have to check out a whole bunch of bucks to find out which one is Ol' Biggie. Then, you gotta go back and find him again. Now, Ol' Biggie works really hard to not make more than one mistake a season, and you've already used up his #1. Creating the second mistake isn't easy.

So, if you succeed, you can strut a bit, just like the guy at the Chamber of Commerce gathering who's just closed on a multi-million-dollar deal. Same emotional situation. We're predators; some sublimate by hunting in the world of money--Donald Trump comes to mind...

Me? I'd rather eat supper off Ol' Biggie.

So after the fun is over, the work of skinning and butchering is done, I have a set of horns to hang on the wall. Ol' Biggie is now immortalized for the remainder of my lifetime, and maybe my younger firends or even my son. That is, your only immortality is in the minds of your friends and relatives who live on after you're gone. Sure, I'm old, and some memories are fading, but I can still describe the day, the circumstances of a fair number of "immortal" bucks.

I guess the same hold for fishing trips and sports car races and a lot of other stuff I've done. Memories.

If memories were money, I'd be a billionaire.

And November 25th is Deer Season Eve. The 26th begins a 16-day holiday season.

, Art

 

[Subby]

Hunting is about being a participant in the world, rather than an observer. It's like watching a football game vs. knowing what it's like to throw a block. Actually being out there, doing what hundreds or thousands of generations of our ancestors did to survive. Have you ever sat against a tree while the temperature dropped 30 degrees in 2 hours? Sat through the rain, sleet, snow in progression? Have you ever been on the top of a mountain while a snow storm rolled in? Lightning crashing all around? Our ancestors did all that, and I have, and I'd guess most of your genuine hunters have. The kill itself is a relatively minor part of the whole experience, although a much relished part. The "rush" is like the first time you ask a pretty girl out, or "almost" being in a car accident, or if you were a young delinquent like myself, that twinge of adrenaline as you were opening the door to get out of the store while shoplifting. Heart's thumping, eyes focused, saying "don't f this up" in your head, pull the rifle up slowly, safety off, one eye on the crosshairs, one on the deer, just two more steps until he clears that fallen oak, he pauses to eat an acorn, you know for damn sure he knows you're watching, you don't dare move, he takes one more step, it's like watching a game winning field goal, one more step, breathe, one more step, quick check to make sure he has antlers, crosshairs settle on the chest, you try to squeeze the trigger like on the range, wham, do the old up-pull-push-down on the bolt, crosshairs back on him, he kicks twice and is still, now the adrenaline really kicks in. You watch him for a few minutes through your scope, he doesn't move, you ease on down to him, circle around his back, tap him on his rump with your muzzle, he doesn't move, eyes are glazed over, you are now a hunter. You sit down next to him, look at his antlers, rub your hands over his hide, apologizing and thanking and cursing the gods simultaneously, sorry that you killed a beast more pure than yourself, thankful that you have sustenance for the winter, cursing that tomorrow you're back swinging a pick.


Sub

P.S. Sorry for the run-on sentences, I done been to college, but I didn't stay for long.

 

[wolf_from_wv]

Have you ever sat against a tree while the temperature dropped 30 degrees in 2 hours? Sat through the rain, sleet, snow in progression?

Last year, I sat under a piece of plywood in a drafty wood pile. Kept thinking "what if there's a snake under here...". Reminded myself that it was 30 degrees or less and snowing - and I'm holding a shotgun if the snake for some reason is more flexible than a 2x4... Weather started as sleet, and rapidly worsened. Saw a few deer heading on the hill, but they were moving really fast... Oh well... Wish my coat had been warmer - I'd have stayed a little bit longer.

Next day, went on a little "hiking with weapons" trip around the hill with my dad trying to drive deer. Heard a couple, but didn't see any... Oh well...

Having said that... Given a choice between a fresh deer that's been hit by a truck and the finest cut of steak, I'd rather have the deer. Don't have to do a lot of processing for the deer - it's already been "grilled"... :banghead:

 

[Subby]

Stonewall Jackson Lake, year before last I believe it was, probably the same storm.

Sub

 

[orangeninja]

I'm trying to get into the sport of hunting. When I was a child I hunted every weekend until about the age of 13. Unfortunantly my family moved to urban North Texas and any and all hunting knowledge and skill I had is gone....only the love for the outdoors remains. I am trying like fire to get back out there, starting small, with rabbits, next I'll move on to hogs....I don't have the money nor the inclanation to hunt deer however, but I do plan on doing a big game hunt before the end of my days, probably elk or bear or both.

Fowl hunting really doesn't ring my bell. I remember cleaning all the shot out of those birds, (dove, quail, duck, etc.) and to me, the birds taste better from a grocery....at least you don't have to squeeze the lead out.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Hunting is about being a participant in the world, rather than an observer....

...Have you ever sat against a tree while the temperature dropped 30 degrees in 2 hours? Sat through the rain, sleet, snow in progression? Have you ever been on the top of a mountain while a snow storm rolled in? Lightning crashing all around? Our ancestors did all that, and I have, and I'd guess most of your genuine hunters have. The kill itself is a relatively minor part of the whole experience, although a much relished part. ...

...You sit down next to him, look at his antlers, rub your hands over his hide, apologizing and thanking and cursing the gods simultaneously, sorry that you killed a beast more pure than yourself, thankful that you have sustenance for the winter, cursing that tomorrow you're back swinging a pick.

I love it. You nailed it Subby. Art and the rest of the answers ain't to shabby either.

As much as you might think you will, you just are not going to sit outside in a snowstorm in the middle of the woods unless you're hunting. And if you've never hunted, you probably cannot understand the appeal of such a thing.

 

[chris in va]

Wow guys, those are some amazing responses. I guess I really didn't know it was like that. Maybe I should join a few guys hunting without doing the shooting and see what it's like first.

I do have one hangup though, how do you get over shooting something living that's not attacking you? Over the years I've had a few people close to me die (one in a bad car wreck) and seeing something on the ground bled out like that would probably give me nightmares.

Again, just a neutral question.

 

[spooney]

One thing I really like about is that it isn't something that some people can do the world over, deer hunting is somewhat of a uniquely North American passion. My ancestors in Wales would have been hung for "poaching" the "King's deer," for doing the same thing that I do several times a year.

Also part of it is just being out there, we generally don't kill many deer each year, (mainly because we don't care to spend all afternoon butchering meat) but just seeing them makes me happy.

 

[mustanger98]

One thing I really like about is that it isn't something that some people can do the world over, deer hunting is somewhat of a uniquely North American passion. My ancestors in Wales would have been hung for "poaching" the "King's deer," for doing the same thing that I do several times a year.

This was part of the subject matter in Jim Carmicheal's article on the American Deer Rifle. (He said to understand the American deer rifle, you have to understand the American deer hunter and that goes back to the "old country", colonization, the Revolution... the Battle of King's Mountain was won by deer hunters...) We get to do something we're born to do and thumb our noses at royalty.

Just seeing them... yeah... the does walk out and look straight at me... I'm like "I'm not here" and the doe's like "the hell you're not". Yeah, I'm probably on a first name basis with every deer on this place, except for the big bucks. They walk out, look at me and say "there he is again" and go on eating.

 

[orangeninja]

Wow guys, those are some amazing responses. I guess I really didn't know it was like that. Maybe I should join a few guys hunting without doing the shooting and see what it's like first.

I do have one hangup though, how do you get over shooting something living that's not attacking you? Over the years I've had a few people close to me die (one in a bad car wreck) and seeing something on the ground bled out like that would probably give me nightmares.

Again, just a neutral question.

Chris, without seeming judgemental or anything, I think you can answer wether you are ready for that or not. Someone very close to me lost someone very close to them within the past 3 years. She just started therapy which is nothing to be ashamed of.

As for an animal suffering....that really gets me bad....I'd rather not shoot anything at all than take a half assed shot that's going to hurt some poor creature. A responsible hunter won't "wing" a deer....the shot will count and the animal should be dead before you ever get to it.

Lastly you have to look at it objectively, you eat a hamburger made from a cow that never stood a chance, it was raised to die, so you could eat it. At least in the wild game has a chance and is free all of it's life until it dies. This is a healthy thing, everything and everyone will die. Me, you, the deer, the grass...in due time everything perishes, but that's not a tragedy, that's nature. Nobody can beat it. When you accept death, then you can live. I recommend reading Tuesdays with Morrie. It'll do you good.

 

[Subby]

"how do you get over shooting something living that's not attacking you?"

With all due respect, you're looking at it the wrong way. My grandpap had a quote he would say(I don't recall the exact phrase in Italian but here goes) "death for you means life for me." His old man would say it when he gave the backyard rooster the hatchet. In the long run, we're all toast anyhow. Have I/Would I give the rooster the hatchet? Yes. That doesn't mean the rooster's worthless, or doesn't have a say in things, or can't pick the spread on Monday Night Football better than me. It just means that's how it is. A celery-munching vegan still needs to eat. That celery didn't grow there naturally. Some pioneer in buckskins(he had to eat, he's one of us) with an axe chopped down the trees to make that field that the celery grows in. Some flannel-clad hick(he had to eat, he's one of us) had to shoot/trap/poison that groundhog that threatened his family with starvation. Some camo-clad redneck puts a Nosler through that whitetail's chest(he's eating now, he's one of us). Bigger things eat big things, big things eat little things, little things eat littler things. In the end, all we do is keep on living until we die. That's all there is. I think hunters tend to be honest about this, accept it, whereas Joe Public tends to forget/ignore/disapprove of the fact that all life is propped up on a giant mound of skulls.

Sub

 

[AStone]

squirrel stew

"how do you get over shooting something living that's not attacking you?"

With all due respect, you're looking at it the wrong way. My grandpap had a quote he would say(I don't recall the exact phrase in Italian but here goes) "death for you means life for me."

Chris, I agree with Sub.

I haven't read this whole thread (yet). I've been at work most of the night ('cept for reading a few posts on THR), and am dog tired now, heading to sleep.

But couldn't resist checking this one.

Here's my (biologist's) version of Sub's grandpa's words of wisdom: life is impossible without death.

That is, life as we know it cannot survive without killing other living things.

Whether you're a carnivore (meat lover), herbivore (vegetarian), fungivore (love them mushrooms), or omnivore (enjoy a salad or greens with your steak & shrooms), you gotta kill to eat.

Yes, there are a few bacteria that can supply their energy needs from inorganic chemistry. (Chemolithosphores they're called; can extract energy from inorganic compounds like S02 or N02.)

But for the rest of us, we've got to eat living things.

Admittedly, the large majority of Americans get their organic nutrients from places like Kroger, Safeway, Albertsons, Fred Meyer, etc now. Meat wrapped in plastic & styrofoam; veges & fruits in display bin; most of the rest in cardboard boxes, cans & bottles.

But just image, what if TEOTWAWKI happened tomorrow. What if there was no more meat in plasticized styrofoam packages, no more vegetable/fruit bins, nor cereal in cardboard? What then?

Those hunters smile because they know where the next protein meal could come from: squirrel, rabbit, quail, goose, turkey, deer, elk, even ground hog is all the others are in short supply.

The hunters are smiling because they know how to put meat on the table.

I gotta tell ya, bro. There's nothing quite as good as squirrel stew.
McD's Big Mac ain't s**t compared to squirrel stew with potatoes, onions, garlic, corn & greens.

Wow, it's almost bedtime, yet I find myself hungry.

Wish I had some squirrel stew cooked up.

Nem

 

[Dave McCracken]

I hunt because it's a family tradition. We've hunted for at least the last million years. It's enabled us to get enough protein to grow big brains, enough to give us leisure time like lions, enough to prosper.

Once, at least a dozen hominid species existed. We survived because we hunted well enough to out compete and/or eat the others.

Hunting molded every facet of our being, from our stereoscopic vision to our marvelous ability to co-operate in times of crisis.

Doubt this? Watch small boys of any culture play chase down and ambush games like Hide and Seek, or Cowboys and Indians. It's in the DNA.

Reenacting our oldest job FEELS a lot more comfortable than the newer stuff, including staring into a monitor and pecking out this on a keyboard.

Besides all that, it a reconnection with the natural world, R&R for our very souls.

Right now, the woods near here are lit with light like that coming through stained glass windows in Cathedrals, and I get the same sort of spiritual jumpstart from either.

Without hunting, I'd miss that.

As for the killing, I can't recall the author now, but here's a quote from a book entitled Meditations On Hunting.

"One does not hunt in order to kill, one kills in order to have hunted".....

Death is the process whereby Life moves from one organism in the food chain to another. EVERY living thing is alive because something else is not.

"Predator" is not a dirty word. Since we are the only predators that think,(With the exception of Dolphins and Orcas) we have to kill selectively and humanely. Stewardship is ours by default.

And those GOBs with the cheesy grins in the hero shots are on an incredible adrenaline rush. BTDT.....

 

[Art Eatman]

"I do have one hangup though, how do you get over shooting something living that's not attacking you?"

chris, do you eat? Eat food? How did it get to the store or restaurant?

Somebody slaughtered the hog for your bacon, and did the butchering, wrapping and shipping. Same for the steer and the steak. Same for Kentucky Fried or Wendy's. None of those people who killed the animals were doing it because they were being attacked.

Hey, I'm not joking: There is scientific evidence that some plants react to human emotions. They emit extremely weak electromagnetic radiation, received via a cascade of amplifiers to be heard as sound. One could then indulge in flights of fancy as to the horrors of an innocent carrot being cruelly yanked from its happy home--without warrant or probable cause.

Food chain: From algae "way down there" on up to us, basically the top predator and omnivore.

Oh: Consider the difference in attitudes about animals, between city people and farmers/ranchers. I think it's fair to say that squeamishness comes from a lack of familiarity with the processes of life. It comes from ignorance, which is of course curable. Ignorance is not the same as stupidity; stupidity is forever.

As a kid, my job was to catch some particular chicken. I'd cut off the head, and after all the bleeding and flopping ended, my grandmother would dip it briefly in scalding water to make it easier to remove the feathers. She'd disassemble it and then cook it and we'd have Sunday dinner.

Art