Questions on reloading for an M1Garand

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elktrout

elktrout

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1. I read on a website devoted to loading for M1s and M14s that CCI#34 primers are preferred because they are harder than normal LR primers. But, the writer also claimed that Win. LR primers are almost as hard as CCI#34s and recommended using them also.

Is this true?

2. Are "small base" reloading dies necessary or will RCBS 30-06 (regular) dies work?

3. Should I add primer sealer to the primers to help keep them in place?

4. Should I add some crimp to keep the bullets tightly in place in the necks? If I do, should I reduce the load to offset the pressure rise from the crimp so that I don't stress the Op rod?

5. Any other tips you know that would help?

Thanks.
 
Q: I read on a website devoted to loading for M1s and M14s that CCI#34 primers are preferred because they are harder than normal LR primers. But, the writer also claimed that Win. LR primers are almost as hard as CCI#34s and recommended using them also.

A: The reason to use a mil spec primer is to avoid a slam fire. I don't doubt slam fires have occurred but I've reloaded hundreds of rounds for an M1A and an M1 using Federal 210M primers and have never had a slam fire. I really don't think Winchester primers are as hard as CCI 34 primers so don't think they will give as much protection against the rare slam fire.

Q: Are "small base" reloading dies necessary or will RCBS 30-06 (regular) dies work?

A: I would be pretty surprised if regular dies didn't work just fine.

Q: Should I add primer sealer to the primers to help keep them in place?

A: The purpose of primer sealer is to keep out moisture and it does nothing to keep primers in place. If you were to be shooting in wet conditions there might be a place for primer sealer but it generally isn't necessary.

Q: Should I add some crimp to keep the bullets tightly in place in the necks? If I do, should I reduce the load to offset the pressure rise from the crimp so that I don't stress the Op rod?

A: There is no need to crimp M1 Garand loads. If you decide to crimp, the load does not need to be reduced.

Q: Any other tips you know that would help?

A: Don't use slow powders as their pressure curve can damage the op rod. The Hornady manual lists loads for the M1 Garand and the powders recommended there should be safe. I personally like Varget and 165 or 168 gr. bullets.
 
There have been hundreds of thousands of rounds loaded for and fired in M1s, M14s, and M1As before CCI ever thought about making a 'milspec' primer. I would use the Win LR primers and not lose any sleep.

Small Base dies ARE NOT needed for routine loading for gas guns with standard military (or even 'Match') chambers. Use your standard FL dies.

Primer sealer is a solution in search of a problem.

I have never crimped a single round loaded for use in gas guns, nor have I ever felt the need. Some people think it's a good idea, but I don't. If I felt the need to crimp, I would probably use a taper crimp die to do so. I prefer to rely on adequate neck tension to keep the bullet in place. There is no need to reduce powder charges to compensate for a crimp.

Read Glenn Zediker's article here: http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html

Lots of good info there that applies to both the M1 and M14/M1A.

You might also read this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5508935

This article by Larry Gibson made a believer out of me regarding the RCBS X-Die. As soon as I return to the States I will be ordering one in .223, .308, and .30-06, as a minimum.
 
Reloading for a Garand is a process, one of which is using the least sensitive primers you can buy.

You always full length resize your cases. Set up your dies with a cartridge headspace gage and size to gage minimum.

I use small base dies, I don’t want any hesitiation to bolt closure as that free floating firing pin is tapping the primer all the way down.

Seat all primers by hand and inspect to ensure that they are below the case head. Reaming pockets to depth is very good practice.

Use the least sensitive primers you can. CCI primers are the only primers advertised as “mil spec”. This means they are less sensitive than others. Federal primers are the most sensitive out there. Federals are well known for having the most slamfiring primer on the market. Federals are a wonderful bolt rifle primer. Do not use them in Garands/M1a's. In 1999 Winchester redesigned their primers to make them more sensitive. Those primers are brass colored. It used to be true that the nickle plated WLR were very "hard", but those primers have been off the market for over ten years.

3. Should I add primer sealer to the primers to help keep them in place?
Click to expand...

This sounds like an echo from an disinformation campaign from one of the factory ammunition manufacturers. One of them (it might be Federal) is making "service rifle ammo". In the ads they state primers are crimped to prevent slamfires. By stating this, they side step the issue of their overly sensitive primers causing slamfires.

When firing single shot, always load from a SLED. It slows the forward bolt velocity. For M1a shooters, always load from the magazine. Never drop a round in the chamber and release the bolt.

Just a week ago I was talking to a Club member. He had had a slamfire in a FAL with the new brass Winchester primers. As I mentioned, Winchester made these primers more sensitive. He sized his cases in a standard sizing die, plus an eight of a turn to the shell holder. He does not use case gages. He placed a round in the chamber and pushed on the bolt release. This was SOP in his FAL manual. The rifle slamfired into the ground 10 feet ahead of him. When he got home he disassembled the bolt and nothing was wrong with the firing pin or firing pin spring, they were clean and oiled, as he keeps his equipment clean and maintained.

He posted his experience on the FAL files, but I was unable to find his post.


As for small base dies, see post #17

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4586502&highlight=small+base+dies#post4586502


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264020


“While the M1 and M14/M1A do have the "web", slam fires are still possible and can be catastrophic. I was lucky enough to come through one with a GI Springfield M1 from the DCM about 20 years ago using LC 69 issue ammo. The rifle held together for the most part, but did fire out of battery on loading a single round in slow fire. If it had been in a rapid fire string, I most likely would not be typing this right now. The rear of the receiver from just aft of the serial number was blown off and the stock cracked with a big chunk blown out of it. The bolt was jammed into the back of the receiver and would not come forward. The op rod handle ripped the palm of my hand open, and you could read the head stamp of the case in reverse on my palm. The recovered empty case was about an inch long. Never did find the rear of the receiver. The DCM took the rifle back and never did tell me what they determined went wrong. They replaced it with a brand new, and I mean, brand new, never issued H&R.

If you shoot either the M1 or M14, I would highly suggest you either use a SLED with the M1 or load single rounds from the mag on the M1A. Reloads should use the harder primers, like CCI, and I check mine with a seating gage. ”



http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=518103&f=2511043&m=348101466&r=615101566

“In the summer of 1968 or 69 the Atlantic Fleet Rifle Matches were plagued with slamfires using .308 Match ammo. Seems a terrible long time ago, and I still get upset about it because I lost my best and only chance to leg out on that cartridge. I was in the first relay at 500 yards (not 600 because the Annapolis range only went out to 500), and someone else popped off the first slamfire and dumped a bullet into Chesapeake Bay. I think I was the second or third to do so, and dropped my score from winner to first leather. The range officer did not allow a refire for any of us in first relay. By the second relay, the ammo malfunction was quite evident, and refires were given, but nothing was done for those of us in first relay. Slamfires popped all afternoon, was not a pretty sight. On examination, and believe me everyone was looking at ammo that day, the decision was a batch of overly sensitive primers. I guarantee, a slamfire can run your entire day!!!”


I have read at least two accounts of Garand shooters having slamfires using Federal American Eagle ammunition. One was at a Garand Match in CA (I think). The shooter had loaded a round standing, dropped the bolt, and the rifle discharged into the ground.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=366406

dmftoy1 Senior Member Join Date: 11-17-03Location: Lexington, ILPosts: 1,947 FWIW if you're going to use commercial ammo (non-nato) I would not single load if you decide to do any service rifle matches as the softer primers (IMHO) are a greater risk of a slam fire. I was recently shooting next to a guy shooting Federal American Eagle 150 grain (30-06) in a Garand and he had a slam fire upon releasing the bolt. I think if you're loading from a magazine you're probably ok as the extra "drag" slows down the bolt slightly. Just my .02Regards,Dave


2008 slamfire with Greek HXP 88 30-06 ammunition.


http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/reload/reload.pl?noframes;read=31735#31762

Re: M1 Garand / Hang fire ?
Levisdad <Send E-Mail> -- Tues 3 Jun 2008 8:54 am
Yep 1988, Lot hxp 88j001-002
I also had a slamfire out of this same lot a short time ago.
The slamfire was from closing the bolt using a two round clip. It was the second stage of rapid prone. I've fired 200 rds after that with out a problem. Until the two hangfires.

FAL Slamfire

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4605910&posted=1

Today, 04:27 PM #18
W.E.G. Senior Member Join Date: 09-26-06Location: all over VirginiaPosts: 1,812 I slam-fired a FAL once.Lake City M852 ammo.Entreprise receiver.1.633 headspace.Tossed the round in the chamber.Slingshot the charging handle.Fired as soon as the bolt slammed.Lucky it was in-battery.I'd like to know what kind of ammo was involved in the KB mentioned in the OP.I don't know what is "white box surplus."

Same, more details on his FAL slamfire.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=235741&highlight=slamfire+or+slam+fire

FAL Files:

Slamming the bolt may cause a slam-fire.

I didn't believe it until it finally happened to me.

I was firing 600 yards from a prone position.
I tossed one shiny new round of Lake City M852 into the chamber, and thumbed the BHO.
The rifle fired at the moment the bolt slammed home.
My 600 yard groups were already sucking beyond belief (all over the 6 and 7 ring).
Expensive TASCO "World Class" scope went T/U that day.

The slam-fire was just the icing on the cake for a day when pretty much everything was going wrong.


http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/reload/reload.pl?noframes;read=31870

saw this same thing happen at all army matches back in 91. the guy next to me had his match m-14 blow up during the rattle battle match at 600 yds.it blew the bolt out of the reciever and pieces of it landed 20-30 yds behind the fireing line. he had one piece go through the top of his cap and graze his scalp and he also bled like a stuck hog.they stopped the match collected all of the ammo, reissued a new lot and away we went with him shooting a different rifle. they decided it was a high primer and this was in LC match. it can happen. it is the only time i ever saw it happen and i have been shooting both 14s and garands for both the USMC and ARMYNG and as a civilian since 1975


http://m14tfl.com/upload/showthread.php?p=411860#post411860

01-07-2009, 04:55 PM
SGT D USMC FNG Join Date: Dec 2008Location: oregonPosts: 13

I had a slam fire in a M1. feel free to disreguard this post because few shooters have first hand knowledge, and even fewer have had one. It only happens to others so why worry, except if you are using federal match (very accrate) primers in a gas gun, You are playing russian roulette. My slam fire was in the mid 1980's. It was with a Federal match primer. I got very involved in this and found 17 cases of M1 slam fires with one common factor, ALL WERE WITH FEDERAL MATCH PRIMERS.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-178109.html

AK103K
January 21st, 2006, 05:17 PM
My right hand got tore up pretty good when my DCM Garand went hand grenade. I'm just glad it happened when I was single loading it, we never found the rear of the receiver, which I have a feeling would have ended up in my head. The worst part of the whole thing was, it happened in New Jersey and trying to convince the people at the hospital that it wasnt a "gun shot" wound and no need to bring the police into it.


AK103K
January 21st, 2006, 09:03 PM
I believe it slam fired. The recovered case was missing the front half, which leads me to believe it fired out of battery. The ammo was DCM issued GI Lake City 69 and not commercial 30-06 or reloads. I sent it back to Anniston and they never did tell me what they thought the cause was. They did send me a brand new H&R though. I still shoot M1's, but I no longer load single rounds by allowing the bolt to go home on its own, and anymore, I usually use a SLED. I also only use CCI primers when I do reload, for both my M1 and M1A's, and I also mike the primers.
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1) I've used nothing but CCI #200 primers for reloading thousands of rounds for my Garand.

2) RCBS full length dies are what I use.

3) Negative on the primer sealer.

4) Nothing but neck tension for me.

5) Use the correct powder(s) for the Garand.
 
You'll want a case gage or case comparitor to set your FL resizing die with.

Primer sealant is only useful if you need to leave your ammo submerged for prolonged periods.
 
Primer sealant is only useful if you need to leave your ammo submerged for prolonged periods.
Click to expand...

LOL!

I sometimes seal some I reload for hunting, but so far I haven't used sealant on the Garand loads.

I'm on the west side of Washington State, Olympic mountains. The area around the hydroelectric project gets 180-200 in of rain annually, so that might qualify as submerged if I don't have enough sense to quit shooting and head for cover... :)
 
In the Larry Gibson article referenced in nicholst55's THR link, there is mention of how the X die expander plug works. It sounds like the neck is overly expanded, which is exactly what 30cal notes in his reply to the original post on that link.

Are any of you experiencing this? If so, how are you handling the problem?
 
Tastes do vary and I have used Winchester Large Rifle primers in my two Garands for over 20 years and my NM M1A for over 5 years without ever experiencing a slam fire or primer failure of any kind. What works for me may not work for you. :)
 
In the Larry Gibson article referenced in nicholst55's THR link, there is mention of how the X die expander plug works. It sounds like the neck is overly expanded, which is exactly what 30cal notes in his reply to the original post on that link.

Are any of you experiencing this? If so, how are you handling the problem?
Click to expand...

Maybe I wasn't clear over there in the X-die thread. I never saw anything with that die that indicated an oversize expander. Neck tension was always adequate.

What I did see was inconsistant seating pressure; that is, some bullets took a fair amount of extra pressure to get them started. Now that I think about it, that's probably due to chamfer (or lack thereof).
 
Tastes do vary and I have used Winchester Large Rifle primers in my two Garands for over 20 years and my NM M1A for over 5 years without ever experiencing a slam fire or primer failure of any kind. What works for me may not work for you.
Click to expand...

same for me.

i use good old bluebox win lr primers for our garands. no probs yet.

ive been mostly loading 147g winchester brand fmjbt bullets. they appear very close to the m2 rounds from the cmp.

when loading in commercial brass, ive been going with 46.4g of h4895, but here recently i got some lc demilled machinegun brass.

it appeared much heavier in its construction so i compared its total volume with some win brass, and to my surprise, it held a full grain less of h4895.

i decided to load these with 45g instead of the normal 46.4g i normally use.

i will be chronographing them this week to see how they compare.

kind of off topic but, and not really along the lines of your questions, but i thought it might be of interest.
 
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