Questions on Remington Model 8

[MarineTech]

A friend of mine just inherited a couple rifles from an uncle that passed away. My friend isn't a hunter like I am, and has no use for them. He brought them over and showed them to me to see if I'd be interested in them. First was a Winchester lever action 30-30. Didn't really have a need for it and passed, but the second rifle grabbed my attention.

It was a Remington Model 8 in .35 Remington. I have to say I was intrigued. I'd never seen one before, and looking it over, I have to say that I'm starting to lean towards making him an offer. Before I do though, I've got a few questions.

Were these good rifles, or were they known to have problems?

If they were decent, are there any quirks I should be aware of?

Is it still possible to get parts for them if something gets broken on it?

Anybody know where to find a manual for them?

What's the going rate on these in about 85% condition? (I know he'd give it up cheaply, but he's a friend, and I wouldn't want to give him the shaft.)

I'm certainly not a collector, I buy my guns to use so I'd actually carry this along to deer camp at some point. I know that .35 Remington is one of the all time great deer cartridges for Maine. It's probably 2nd for number of deer taken only to the 30-30 so I wouldn't think twice about using the caliber. I'm just curious whether the gun itself is worth it.

Any info is welcome.

 

[ACP230]

The Remington Model 8 and the improved Model 81 have their detractors, but they are a John Moses Browning design from 1900 so must have something going for them. According to "The NRA Guide To Firearms Assembly" the 8 and 81 are long-recoil designs. The barrel and other parts recoil far enough to let the bullet exit the barrel before the breech unlocks. Some people don't approve of the moving around, some don't care.

I have always liked the way they look, but the cash and the inclination have never gotten together for me. I saw a Model 8 at a recent gun show and I think they wanted $400 or so. A refinished Model 81 with a tang peep sight had a price of $350. I was broke, of course.

The .300 Savage and .35 Remington seem to be the two most common calibers for these around here.

I wish someone would walk up and offer me first dibs on one of these rifles.

 

[Gewehr98]

Oh, where to begin?

The Remington Model 8, born of John Moses Browning's 1905 patent for an autoloading rifle. Deemed the first successful commercial autoloading rifle in the U.S., although Standard Arms made a gas-operated Model G rifle about the same timeframe. Here's a bit of online history:

http://www.manions.com/trendline/217trendline/rem.htm

The Model 8, and later 81, are long-recoil actions, much like the Auto 5 shotgun. The difference with the rifle is that it's fed from a non-detachable box magazine, and has an outer barrel shroud, in which the barrel reciprocates during it's recoil and return to battery.

All Remington Model 8's and 81's are takedown, the forend comes off easily, and the forward receiver and barrel assembly is attached to the rear receiver via a bolt with folding handle.

The rifles, over the years, came in .25 Remington, .30 Remington, .32 Remington, .35 Remington, and (later) .300 Savage. The .25 through .32 calibers were pretty close copies of the Winchester centerfire rounds of the same caliber, but the Remington versions were rimless for better feeding from the box magazine. In a pinch, if you need brass for the Remington rimless rounds, you can use .30-30 Winchester brass, and lathe-turn down the rim, while deepening the extractor groove. (Ask me how I found this out!) The .35 Remington is a different beast, somewhat larger in case diameter, but still popular and available as commercially loaded ammo. The .35 Remington was offered in Marlin leverguns, which is probably why it's still available.

There's quite a bit of history involving a couple folks named Bonnie and Clyde, and a lawman named Frank Hamer, who took a shine to the Remington Model 8 as his go-to gun. Rather than attempt to re-post it here, I'll just give a URL illustrating it:

http://www.geocities.com/gator2856/frankhamer.html

and another site:

http://www.manions.com/trendline/216trendline/bonnie.htm


The gun became a favorite of law enforcement, and was offered with an extended-capacity magazine for that purpose. Some of these guns are still around, I think Tony has one in his collection. They look like this:



I've got two of these guns, one is a 1906-vintage Model 8 in .32 Remington. It was a yard sale wreck, complete with cracked stock, shortened butt, and cheap recoil pad. But the bore was pristine, so with a little extra wood from Fajen, some TLC with stain and linseed oil, and a beautiful re-bluing job brought it to this condition:



That's a Lyman #2 rear peep sight, which is probably worth more than the gun. Note, there are no external magazine guide springs on this rifle, those came later in the production run.

My second Browning-patent Remington Autoloader is a Model 81 in .300 Savage. It's currently undergoing restoration, again, with replacement Fajen wood. (Thanks, Tony Rumore of Tromix Corp!)

Now, something to pay attention to. The early Remington Model 8 rifles did not have a firing pin rebound spring. This means that when you chamber a round, make damned certain that the bolt strips the round from the magazine. DO NOT simply place a round in the chamber and let the bolt fly forward with the bolt release knob/follower catch on the left side of the receiver - you risk a slamfire. Been there, got that soiled underwear. Matter of fact, even when you do chamber a round correctly, if you don't fire it and safely eject it, take a look at the primer. There will be a slight dimple, reminiscent of M1, M14, and M16 ammo.

The later Remington Model 81's took care of this potential problem by installing a firing pin rebound spring inside the bolt, around the firing pin. My early Model 8 doesn't have the clearance around the firing pin for that spring, so I just make certain I load it from the box magazine each and every time, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

My Model 8 in .32 Remington is surprisingly accurate, easily inside 2.5" at 100 yards with my 170gr handloads. I lucked out and fell into a stash of unfired, virgin .32 Remington brass from an estate sale. Remington will, every now and then, make a run of .30 Remington brass, and that can be used for the .25 and .32 Remington versions. For the .35 Remington, brass isn't really a problem.

Neat thing is, the Remington autoloader loves cast bullets, I run 170gr hard cast gas-checked in my Model 8, and it cycles and feeds them just fine.

Notice the safety lever? Kalashnikov probably did, too!

Parts are out there, you have to dig for them. I have a spare barrel in .30 Remington, and a spare main barrel shroud buffer spring. If you cannot find what you're looking from from Numrich (Gun Parts Corp) then I'd suggest Poppert's.

For an owner's manual, just give Remington a call. Believe it or not, they sent me, free of charge, not only a photocopy of the original owner's manual for my Model 8, but also several pages from the Remington 1910 catalog, displaying the various grades and chamberings for the Model 8.

I have the takedown and exploded diagram for the Model 8 and 81 in electronic format if you need it.

Hope this helps, it was a bit long-winded, but can you tell I am partial to the vintage Browning autoshucker?

 

[rick_reno]

Model 8

I have one that belonged to my father, I used to hunt with it back in the late 50's/early 60's in upstate NY. He bought it used in the early 50's. It's in 35 Remington. We never had any problems with it. Mine sits in the back of one of my safes now and doesn't get used - but I'm positive if I were to pull it out it'd still work.

 

[Art Eatman]

Another historical note: In August, 1966, when Charles Whitman did his thing atop the UT tower, all the local PD had was the 8 (or 81, dunno). Needless to say, they were at a distinct disadvantage for shots of 400 to 700 yards...

Art

 

[Gordon]

I have a restored(all new springs and everything fitted, inspected and refinished) .35 Rem Mod 8 with a tang sight and a Dockendorf front sight. It can plant 200 grain Rem corelokts in less than 4" every time at 100yds(which is about the maximum range IMHO). This gun has the usual JMB reliability and the .35 rem is a THUMPER within that range limit. I'm surprised nobody mentioned the safety which seals the action and the Ruskies ripped off(whups Gewher did). Some how these guns had a reputation for not great accuracy.While it's not a bolt gun I've found them to have good accuracy, about as good as any two piece stock gun of any sort! I had a scoped Mod 81 in .300 Savage that was a solid 2" performer. I sold it 15 years ago and wish I had it back. My model 8 is displayed next to a .35 Rem model 141 Remington pump and that next to an old .35 Rem Marlin carbine. I LOVE .35 Rem and shoot it alot in a XPR-100 pistol and the TC contender 14". The model 8 and 81 are 'Oldies but goodies' IMHO.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I've been looking for a good shooter in .300 Savage for some time, but never seem to have money when I come across one, or when I have money there are none available.


Right now on Gunbroker there's a very nice (but looks as if it has been refinished) 81 in .300. And I don't have the money he's asking.


However, there are also some books on the 8 & 81, including a takedown guide.

http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=10857136

 

[Jagermeister]

I have the disassem W/photos. If you'll send me your email address I will send them to you: Great gun, unique.

JM

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

You don't want to hear this, but I got my first M-81 for $145. It's in about 85-90% condition, with only a few scratches in the stock, and some worn-off bluing at the balance point and the front of the magazine from being carried in someone's right hand. It has an excellent Redfield peepsight on it, and is chambered for the .300 Savage. I thought the pricetag was a misprint when I picked it up, and then refused to let go of it when I discovered otherwise until I had my wallet out. This one is NICE, and I've seen comparable guns for as much as $400.

I got my second M-81, a .35 Remington, for the sum total of $165. It has that same Lyman peepsight that Gewehr's rifle has, but it's not as in quite as nice condition. It has nicer-looking wood, but the finish on the barrel shroud is a mottled brown patina, and the receiver has a lot of silver mottling along it's left side. The biggest bugaboo is the shoulder stock is loose and rattle-ish, and the old Hawkins recoil pad mounted to it is starting to crumble. I'll probably fix it, though, as the grain on this stock is quite attractive compared to the plainer wood on the .300, and it has a black grip cap and spacer under the pad.

These rifles cover a large time span. While niether has the schnable fore-end of Gewehr's Model 8, The .35 has a semi-beavertail fore-end, (Like that banana-clip picture.) while the .300 has a more modern, thinner stock. The real clue is the numbers: The .35 is 2xxx, while the .300 is 33xxx. These guns were first produced in 1906, and only went out of production for WW-II. The rest of the parts inventory was assembled and sold after the war, but production was not resumed as the guns had become too expensive to build. That's some 40+ years of continuos production, quite a feat for one of the very first commercial autoloading rifles ever made.

These things are BUILT, with few or no stamped parts. John Browning's elegant design, and Remington's excellent pre-war craftsmanship show both inside and out. The long-recoil action makes them very nice shooters, and the balance well for woods carry. The 22" barrel makes them fast-handling, but the gun's fairly substantial wieght makes them settle smoothly for fast shooting. The action is apparently quite strong, as I've read someplace about a few of these guns chambered for .308 Winchester.

These guns are a great value at the $250-$400 that they become available for typically. Modern versions would probably run well over $1000, and a look at the fit and finish of the interior parts makes Remington's current 7400-series autoloaders look like cheap crap. The trickiest part is finding in the desireable calibers of .300 Savage and .35 Remington, as the .25, 30, and .32 Remington Rimless calibers have gone by the wayside. Caliber doesn't seem to affect their prices much, however. The average rate is about $325 here in the PRK, with my two being rare exceptions.

Model 8/81's are kind of complicated compared to a bolt gun, and thorough cleaning involves taking the guns down as Gewehr mentioned, but at least you can get them apart, which is more than can be said for modern guns like the 7400 and the BAR. John Browning's superb engineering is evident, as the guns can only go back together one way. (I got mine apart and back together without directions, but I don't recommend that. I wound up dropping the bolt shut on a fingertip, and having a triangle of fingernail stomped down into the top of my finger with copious resultant dripping blood. Not fun. Took months to grow that little goof out.) You can do basic cleaning without dis-assembly, but if you can detail strip a Wichester M-94, the Model 8 should be no problem, particularly with the information offered here.

Marine Tech, I would STRONGLY endorse getting that Model 8, especially if you can wangle a good price for it. You won't be sorry.

 

[MarineTech]

Marine Tech, I would STRONGLY endorse getting that Model 8, especially if you can wangle a good price for it. You won't be sorry.

Thanks for the endorsement. Actually, I did go for it. Gave him $300 for it. It seems to be in excellent condition, and I've already contacted Remington for a manual. Serial number is 372XX.

The finish on it is excellent for a gun that old with only minor scuffs and blemishes on the blueing. The stock is excellent, and somewhere in the past had a recoil pad added. I realize they came with a plain metal buttpad, but where I'm planning on using this rifle instead of keeping it as a collection piece, I don't mind. The foregrip needs replacement. It has a chunk out of it on the bottom where it meets the receiver, and I'm in the process of tracking a replacement down.

The barrel is iffy. I've given it a quick once over, and there dosen't appear to be any pitting, but there's a lot of fouling built up. Once I get my hands on the manual, I plan on taking the whole thing down and going to work on the barrel. Just in case I find a horror show under the fouling, I'm keeping my eyes out for a replacement.

Mechanically, everything appears to be tight and sound. Bolt locks back correctly and the bolt release works properly. The mechanism functions smoothly without any slop or binding. The magazine feeds fine with all dummy cartridges in the magazine and ejection is positive. I'm not planning taking it out to the range until I have a chance to go over it thoroughly and check the springs and internals.

Overall, I'm happy with the deal. This ought to make a big splash with the older gents at deer camp next year. Now, if I can just find a receiver or tang peep sight to fit it, I'll be completely happy. Gewehr98, do you happen to know what rifle that #2 was meant to fit? I see that Lyman is making the #2 again, but they list 2 models. 1 for Winchester and one for Marlin. I'd be interested in picking up a new one assuming I can't find an original.

Out of curiosity though, anybody know what was the bullet weight was on the original Remington load? I see Remington still offers 150gr. and 200gr. loads in .35 Remington. Not wanting to put undue stress on things, I'd prefer to keep my ammo choice as close to original specs as possible. I reload for my M14 rifles, and I know that a lot of semiauto gas guns are designed to function on a fairly specific pressure curve. I figure I'm going to have to get some dies and start experimenting with .35 Remington to find some light loads that are reasonably accuract and that will cycle correctly.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Good going, MarineTech!

I was so inspired by this thread that I picked up a Model 81 in .300 Savage last week for the same $300.

It should be here sometime this coming week, I'm hoping.

 

[MarineTech]

Good catch Mike. The 81s are almost identical to the Model 8. Plus, you'll be able to find .300 Savage ammo.

Maybe I've started revival.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Plus, you'll be able to find .300 Savage ammo."

It will be a tough search. I'll have to go to the basement of doom, fight off the killer crickets and the dogfur balls of death, chant the incantations to open the door to the secret ammo closet, and then step over the perilous threshold to grab the string of light...

After that it's just a matter of sorting through the stacks of ammo on the shelf.

I've got plenty of .300 Savage ammo. I've got a Savage 99 and a Remington 722 in that caliber already.