Questions on silencers and sub-sonic ammo.

[chopinbloc]

i have to agree with tim on the issue of carrying suppressed. it seems to me that you WANT to make lots of noise in a defense situation - to rattle your attacker and summon help as quickly as possible.

also, for the semantics nazis: silencer, suppressor and muffler are all acceptable terms. one of the first developers of said technology called his design a silencer when its effects were fare from silent. i forget his name. look, there is a difference between a clip and a magazine. they are two distinct ammo carrying devices. there is no difference between silencer and suppressor except that if you say suppressor a person might not be sure if you were talking about a flash suppressor or sound suppressor.

 

[harvester of sorrow]

chopinbloc, Hiram Maxim is the early designer you're looking for.

Why would anyone want a "silencer"?

Well, Tim, have you ever shot a suppressed weapon and thought "Wow! That's cool!" Or, have you ever watched a new shooter or child shoot a suppressed weapon and turn around with a huge grin on their face? Either of those are good enough reasons for me, and if they're not for you, oh well.

 

[Tim3256]

I stand by my position.
Neither I, nor the original poster was referring to hunting. This is a self-defense issue, and in a SHTF scenario, I'm not concerned with stealth. I WANT alot of attention. If you don't agree, that's fine, I can respect that.

From the original poster:

Would carrying a silenced pistol be practical? For a normal handgun it seems clunky and unwieldy but what if you had like a derringer or one of these?

Why aren't there handguns out there on the market with integral silencers? That would be neat.

What I do take offense to is the condescending remarks about my being from MA. That is irrelevant, childish and arrogant. Besides, if you took the time to read my info, you'd find that I'm not from MA. I just live here, folks, I didn't invent the place, and I am definitely NOT your vision of the typical MA lefty. Damn, guys; I'm on your side with regards to 2amend issues, and then some. Just because someone wants to find out where the thinking is on a particular matter, that's no reason to be a jackass about it.

Tim, I go to Boston twice a year so I speak Massachusetts. Suppressors are beneficial to public health, especially women and minorities.

Discharging firearms produces soundwaves which damage hearing even with hearing protection such as muffs and ear plugs. Women and minorities are especially suspectible to hearing damage from evil white men with guns. As well, suppressors slow the escape of noxious gases from the firearm which helps the environment and fluffy bunnies.

Then I realized you are from MA, it will take awhile but if you work hard you can erase years of gun prejudice by hanging out on the High Road.

Actually I'm from TN, so if you're this narrow-minded, you probably think that I'm also a toothless hillbilly that's in love with his sister. So either way, I guess you're just better than me. Good for you.

For those of you that answered intelligently...thank you. You made me think about another point of view. That's what it's supposed to be all about.

 

[Third_Rail]

I'm from MA as well, though I was born and raised here.


I think silencers should be completely legal, transferred with no more paperwork than a box of thumbtacks.


Heck, if you want to carry one on a pistol, go ahead. When I carry I'm not wanting a pistol that long! Most pistols are long enough without another 5"+ on the end of the barrel.



However, what the heck is up with everyone jumping on Tim3256? He ASKED a question, he didn't say they should be banned. He was asking to obtain more information, that's all.

No different than when I first signed up and asked questions - and I'm from MA too, so don't use that as cover. Remember, this is the High Road, let's all live up to that as best we can.

 

[Jax]

Third Rail,

Some answered his QUESTION without rancor, I feel I certainly did.

However, it's not the question that is at issue with me. Tim stated with his followup OPINION that he thought suppressors were not legitimate for non-MIL/non-LEO use. He did not qualify his opinion, adding the carrying part, until later.

Legitimate is a strong word to use and implies legality. I inferred from the statement that he was making a judgement call about the legal appropriateness of *my* ownership and use of a suppressor, without qualification. That is where I got a little miffed. While Tim is free to make decisions about *his* need/desire for a suppressor, his freedom does not extend to *my* need/ownership/use of one.

Tim,

Hearing is an important sense in many hunting situations, and contributes a great deal to the shoot/no-shoot decision when your vision is impaired (trees/scrub brush). By applying all of my senses and being certain of my target *and* what is beyond it, I think I am certainly a safer hunter. I'm sorry you feel that is a lame reason. We can disagree on that issue.

The hearing sense *is* of much less concern when hunting on open terrain, where you can see everything.

Jax

 

[Omni04]

hmmm ive never been hunting but how much would a suppressed rifle help? If you were hunting a deer, and missed, would it still hear something and run away?

I mean obviously, less noise would be better all around if you can afford it, im just wondering how much it would help if you are hunting deer.

thanks guys

 

[grimjaw]

I don't know about concealed carrying suppressed. I haven't seen many suppressors for centerfire pistols that would be practical to conceal, at least without a trenchcoat. Aren't most of the inexpensive suppressors manufactured for .22 caliber firearms, a less-than-idea cailber for self-defense? I agree that it's probably not *practical* to carry a concealed, suppressed weapon, but should it be illegal?

Let me phrase the question a different way. Put aside how theoretically impossible it is, let's just say that subsonic, centerfire ammunition is developed that when fired from a 2" snubnosed revolver, sounds no louder than a subsonic .22LR cartridge out of a rifle barrel. This ammunition is not cost-prohibitive to manufacture or purchase, and is available in most common calibers. It proves to be an effective self-defense cartridge. Should it be legal to carry this *ammunition* concealed?

Is it the delivery device that's the problem, or the fact that no one can hear the shot? It's currently legal for me to carry a suppressed weapon: a knife. The only sounds issuing from use of that are the attacker's blood-curdling screams.

Go a step further and say that suppressors are developed that are much smaller than the those currently in use today. Should we be allowed to conceal them?

I'm required to operate my car with the seatbelt fastened in most places. Why not *require* suppressed weapons and ammunition, for safety reasons, just like the requirements for ear protection at most shooting ranges.

I do not think there should be any more legislation for suppressors than already exists for handguns or rifles. Firing a suppressed weapon in a self-defense situation *in my own home* would reduce the risk of hearing damage to myself (and my attacker, your honor), and the reduced flash makes it a more effective firearm if used in a darkened room.

Please poke holes in this target argument, since I can't plink with my new Single Six until Sunday.

Actually I'm from TN, so if you're this narrow-minded, you probably think that I'm also a toothless hillbilly that's in love with his sister.

Tim3256, you'll have to fight me for your sister, I saw her first!

jmm

 

[Travis McGee]

Tim, Tim, Tim...
Are you aware that in some countries you are considered downright rude if you don't have a legal suppressor?

Are you telling me you enjoy being blasted by the shots of all of the other shooters at your range?

You wouldn't enjoy shooting guns, without the ear damage?

 

[Travis McGee]

Omni,
I think your neighbors would appreciate your hunting or target practicing with a suppressed rifle on your own land. Who wants to hear BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! from the next property all day? Legal suppressors lead to happier neighbors, and more acceptance of shooting generally.

 

[Travis McGee]

Tim, a SHTF scenario is when you will want to use a suppressor the MOST. If you are trying to do a little stealthy meat hunting, you will not want to attract the attention of the 15 armed marauders who have recently "moved in" to the estate down the road. Your hunting shots will be like a dinner bell for a gang of bandits. You don't want them to even know you exist. They will not be frightened off by a solo guy shooting now and then, they are gang bangers! They were raised around gun fights! Your unsuppressed shots will attract their attention, which is what you DON'T want.

 

[Marshall]

Where is hunting with a suppressor or silencer legal? In my state it is surely not legal therefore has never crossed my mind. The only reason I can see for using them for hunting in a state where they are not legal would be to make it easier to poach, hunt at night or hunt out of season. What am I missing?

ODWC Regs

Deer & Elk
Legal Means of Taking:

Rifles: Centerfire rifles firing at least a 55-grain weight soft-nosed or hollow point bullet. Clips or magazines of all .22 caliber centerfire firearms may not be capable of holding more than seven (7) rounds of ammunition.
Muzzleloaders: Equipment described as legal for deer muzzleloader season and black powder firearms loaded from the breech are legal.
Shotguns: 20 gauge or larger, firing a single rifled slug are legal.
Handguns: Centerfire handguns, minimum barrel length is four (4) inches, chambered for .24 caliber or larger and 100 grain or heavier soft-nosed bullet having an overall cartridge case length of 1 1/4 inches or longer are legal.
Archery: Equipment described as legal for deer archery season.
Illegal devices: Fully automatic firearms, silencers, laser sights and light enhancement devices (night scopes) are illegal.

Edit to add:

Silencers
Silencers may not be used to hunt game animals, game or nongame birds.
ODWC General Hunting Regs

 

[wdlsguy]

Texas game regulations

Game animals and game birds may be hunted with any legal firearm, EXCEPT:
- white-tailed deer, mule deer, desert bighorn sheep, and pronghorn antelope may NOT be hunted with rimfire ammunition of any caliber.
- shotguns are the only legal firearm that may be used to hunt Eastern turkey during the spring Eastern turkey season (see County Listing). Rifles and handguns may not be used to hunt Eastern turkey.
- pellet guns and other air guns are NOT LEGAL.
- fully automatic firearms are NOT LEGAL.
- firearms equipped with silencers or sound-suppressing devices are NOT LEGAL.
- a shotgun is the only legal firearm for hunting migratory game birds and lesser prairie chicken (see Definitions - Legal Shotgun).

Nongame Animals (Non-Protected):
Any lawful firearm, pellet gun, or other air gun is legal.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/annual/hunt/means/index.phtml

 

[Jay Kominek]

Where is hunting with a suppressor or silencer legal?

"Silencer" appears in the Colorado Revised Statutes in only two places. Where they define it, and where they say it is illegal to have one without a valid "permit or license."
The Division of Wildlife's web site says nothing about silencers, supressors or mufflers.
Thus, as a layperson, it seems to me that it is legal to use one in Colorado for hunting.

 

[Zundfolge]

One of the grand ironies is that if it weren't for the 1934 NFA (where suppressors where added as an afterthought) I would be willing to bet that there are several states (MA included) that would REQUIRE the use of suppressors and we'd all be complaining in these forums about how they eliminate the ability to carry a small concealable pistol


As for the "legitimacy" of the use of suppressors, I believe that people see suppressors as "evil" and having no "legitimate use for the common man" as a direct consequence of watching too many James Bond movies where suppressors are only for assassins. Time and time again we've had threads here complaining about the "Hollywoodization" of firearms and how that leads to stupid attitudes by antis and stupid laws (like the AWB).


Frankly a suppressor is the only NFA Item I really really want (as I couldn't afford to keep feeding a full auto).


My hearing is important to me, and in a self defense or food gathering operation I'd like to be able to keep my hearing protected.

Thus, as a layperson, it seems to me that it is legal to use one in Colorado for hunting.

Yet another reason I'm glad I moved from The People's Republic of Kansas to the rarefied air of the Rockys where a man can live as a free man
(even though I don't hunt...or own a suppressor...yet)

 

[Daniel T]

Nongame Animals (Non-Protected):
Any lawful firearm, pellet gun, or other air gun is legal.

Yup. When you're eradicating pest hogs, there are all sorts of plusses when you use a suppresor. Your neighbors don't complain. You keep your hearing. You don't scare the entire heard off somewhere you can't get to them, but that they'll come back from to continue to absolutely and totally destroy any field they can.

---

Tim, have you ever actually fired a suppressed firearm? Do you know how loud they actually are?

I've fired an array of guns with suppressors. Various .30 rifles (.30-30, .308, .30-06, .30 Carbine) with .30 cans and subsonic or full powered rounds, a 9mm Cobray M11 with both subsonic and full powered ammo, and a 92FS. None of them would have been very comfortable to fire without hearing protection, even the subsonic 9mm, which was the most quiet.

There's a good reason most people on this site refer to them as "suppressors" as opposed to "silencers": they still ain't quiet, they're just less loud.

 

[Tim3256]

Jax,
You're just determined to be mad at me, huh?
According to you...

Tim stated with his followup OPINION that he thought suppressors were not legitimate for non-MIL/non-LEO use.

I never said that. What I said was:

I can't think of any legitimate use, other than mil or (possibly) LEO.

And I never did this:

he was making a judgement call about the legal appropriateness

nor did I claim my freedom extends thusly

While Tim is free to make decisions about *his* need/desire for a suppressor, his freedom does not extend to *my* need/ownership/use of one.

You may have thought I implied that, but that was not the intention, and I thought I cleared this up when I said:

I never meant to imply that I would deny to others what I see as unneccesary.

Also, I'll say it yet again. I wasn't addressing hunting. You're not paying attention:
I posted this,

Neither I, nor the original poster was referring to hunting. This is a self-defense issue

in response to this (from the original poster),

Would carrying a silenced pistol be practical? For a normal handgun it seems clunky and unwieldy but what if you had like a derringer or one of these? Why aren't there handguns out there on the market with integral silencers? That would be neat.

And Travis,

Are you aware that in some countries you are considered downright rude if you don't have a legal suppressor?

Are you aware that in some countries you are considered downright rude if you do not offer your wife to visiting guests as entertainment? Do you do this? "Hey, it's only polite, Honey. Now get in there and take one for the team, Babe!" That is just silly.

As for this...come on now.

If you are trying to do a little stealthy meat hunting...Your hunting shots will be like a dinner bell for a gang of bandits

What you're describing is murder. "Meat hunting"?, "hunting shots"? If I could do what you're suggesting, I would perform a stealthy egress. The situation you describe is so statistically improbable that it's (IMHO) foolish to spend valuable resources training for this virtual "no-win" scenario. Egress is the best option, suppressed or not, the BG can still scream his damn head off...that kinda gives me away anyhow, doesn't it. I really think you're reaching here.
Besides, once again, I was not talking about hunting, but apparently (your words, friend) you are.

I just asked a question. That's all. Geesh, you can unbunch your panties, now.

 

[torpid]

i have to agree with tim on the issue of carrying suppressed. it seems to me that you WANT to make lots of noise in a defense situation - to rattle your attacker and summon help as quickly as possible.

Yes!!!

In fact can we make them LOUDER?
Hopefully to the point of 100% deafening permanent damage to both shooter and assailant. After all nothing screams "HELP" like a permanent hearing damage.
The loudest sound possible is 194dB, let's aim for that- think of the improvement in both "rattling" and help solicitation!

Also, perhaps making it so the muzzle flash can somehow partially or permanently blind everyone within ten feet would be good too?
After all, nothing quite grabs the attention like brilliant flashing visuals that can be seen from space!


(yes, I'm silly)

 

[jlwatts3]

Does anyone know why suppressors were added to the NFA? It was before Hollywood casted them in a bad light. Were criminals using them then?

 

[Third_Rail]

Poaching, or at least that was the reason given.


They weren't being used by poachers, but everyone was afraid they MIGHT be. Same deal why VT has them illegal, actually.

 

[Jay Kominek]

If you are trying to do a little stealthy meat hunting...Your hunting shots will be like a dinner bell for a gang of bandits

What you're describing is murder. "Meat hunting"?, "hunting shots"? If I could do what you're suggesting, I would perform a stealthy egress. The situation you describe is so statistically improbable that it's (IMHO) foolish to spend valuable resources training for this virtual "no-win" scenario. Egress is the best option, suppressed or not, the BG can still scream his damn head off... that kinda gives me away anyhow, doesn't it. I really think you're reaching here.

...hunting for food is murder? Boy howdy, if you think taking game is murder, you're probably in the wrong place.

Or, if you think that Travis is talking about hunting people, well then, you just need to read more carefully. He is talking about making sure you're not heard by people who'd like to kill you, while you are engaging in a perfectly moral activity.

Are you aware that in some countries you are considered downright rude if you do not offer your wife to visiting guests as entertainment? Do you do this? "Hey, it's only polite, Honey. Now get in there and take one for the team, Babe!" That is just silly.

Ah yes, whoring one's wife is equivalent to spending nontrivial amounts of money so as to avoid discomforting others with EAR SHATTERING noises. If you can't see why it might be polite to not make noises which permenantly damage the hearing of people around you, well, hot tip, you might want to just give up on this thread. (And don't be surprised when your neighbors don't think too kindly of you for touching off the .50BMG in the back yard.)

If you're innocent of all wrong thinking and never meant any of the things which people are saying you meant, then, uh, how about a post along the lines of "gee whiz folks, it is now completely clear to me why a person would want to own a supressor," because if the legitimate answers given so far havn't convinced you, then I'm afraid most people here aren't going to believe the protestations.

I just asked a question. That's all. Geesh, you can unbunch your panties, now.

No, you did not just ask a question. You also tossed in a bit of opinion afterwards, which is what people are taking issue with. And I don't think you're helping yourself with your responses, in particular the unbunching of panties.

 

[Zundfolge]

Tim3256, fire any handgun larger then a .32 indoors with no hearing protection and if you still are of the opinion that there's no legitimate use for suppressors then we'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[duck_god827]

Suppressor

On this subject is the is there a place I can get information on which states are legal and which are not? Also what permits and laws there are that need to be observed and followed.

 

[Jay Kominek]

On this subject is the is there a place I can get information on which states are legal and which are not? Also what permits and laws there are that need to be observed and followed.

There are old threads on this. Search for them, and in particular, read what 444 has written, as he actually knows what he is talking about. For example, this thread. http://www.titleii.com/ and http://www.gem-tech.com/ have some relevent legal information, as well.

 

[Nick_90]

A sound suppressor permits me to shoot .22 in my back garden without alarming the neighbours...

 

[tyme]

Tim, don't you see something just a little bit wrong with this attitude?
"Firing a gun in self defense is rare enough that if I have to do so, I should have to live with the resultant minor to moderate hearing damage."

If someone can carry around a silenced firearm, or keep one in the car or on a nightstand, why do you care? Given the propensity of western countries to move toward socialized medicine, you should be thankful they're doing what they can to reduce your tax burden in the unfortunate event they have to defend themselves.