Quite the power difference (rifle cartridge vs. pistol cartridge)

[MacTech]

I never really got seriously into rifles until recently, I was happy plinking with .22 rifles and pistols, and centerfire handguns, I tended to lean more towards handguns as I just had more fun with them, (.22, 9mm, .38SPL, 357 Mag, .45 ACP)

A couple weeks ago, I picked up a Savage 111 in .30-06, aside from a rather inaccurate Mosin M-44, I was never really into big bore rifles

That changed once I got my Savage on the range, it had the exhilaration, recoil, and noise and fury of the M-44, but has turned out far more accurate

one thing that amazes me is the amount of punch rifle rounds carry, they fully eclipse handgun rounds, I now understand why many say "all handgun rounds suck" or "handgun rounds are all marginal" or Clint Smith's saying "the handgun is used to fight your way back to your rifle/shotgun"

just pulling some numbers from my Lee Reloading manual bears this out....

Maximum loads from the Lee manual, bullet weights (jacketed) as close as possible across the line, cartridges i've fired
.38 Spl: 170 grn 888 FPS, 15,900 PSI
9mm: 147 grn 1047 FPS, 31,900 PSI
.357 Mag: 170 grn 1662 FPS, 40,800 PSI
.45 ACP: 185 grn 1066 FPS, 20,600 PSI
.45 ACP: 230 grn 942 FPS, 20,500 PSI
7.62x54R: 180 grn 2692 FPS, 48,504 PSI
.30-06: 180 grn 2800 FPS, 57,000 PSI

On average, roughly double the FPS and PSI ratings....

Although that 9mm 147 grain hot load (7.2 grains Accur #7 under a 147 grain jacketed bullet) looks pretty impressive, at least on paper...

Rifle rounds sure do pack a wallop!

 

[dscottw88]

.30-06: 180 grn 2800PSI, 57,000 PSI

2800 PSI? or FPS?

Haha, it's all good. I carry +P loads in my 9mm. Lots and lots of people around the world have been put down with it. I never feel like their is a situation I couldn't handle (aside from mutant zombies) with that load. And I'd have to agree with the statement that the handgun is used to fight your way back to your rifle. Rifles are more accurate, more powerful etc etc.

 

[MacTech]

FPS, sorry, D'OH! (edited)

 

[drumenigma]

Maybe you're just not shooting a big enough handgun.

I own a Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 casull and it kicks pretty hard with the right round.

 

[dakotasin]

wait until you start checking energy levels, and then you'll really be impressed. or... set some pumpkins up at 200 yards this fall. pop a few w/ the handgun of your choice, and then shoot one w/ the rifle. there is a difference.

i like big bore handguns quite a bit, but there just is no comparison to a big game centerfire rifle for velocity and energy.

 

[C-grunt]

Take Dakotasin's advice. Get a watermelon or something like that and set it up at 25 yards. Shoot it with a handgun. The take another to 100 yards and shoot it with your '06. You'll really see the difference then.

 

[flipajig]

If you want to feel real power and kick put a rifle caliber in you hand and then light it off. pick up a contender or a encor in a rifle cal and then see what you think then.

 

[sniper5]

drumenigma-

That's near the top for handguns.

Compare that with something like a .460 Weatherby Mag. which is something near the top for non hydraulically dampened rifles. I've fired one and it takes the fun out of shooting. Something like 90 ft/lbs of recoil. The .300 class are wimps by comparison. PS-DON'T fire one from the bench or prone.

 

[briansmithwins]

One big thing to remember when comparing cartridges is that speed kills. The formula for computing energy is 1/2mass X velocity squared. If you keep the mass of the bullet the same and double the velocity, you quadruple the energy.

There are other practical effects from velocity too. Over about 2000 fps bones that are hit fragment, becoming secondary missiles. BSW

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Bone fragments can become secondary missiles at any impact velocity. All you need to do is shatter a bone.

And energy is only one thing that must be considered to compute killing power, and its importance in this is often exaggerated.

The reason rifles are so much more powerful than pistols is velocity, but it isn't so much because of velocity's influence on energy as it is the effect it has on tissue. The 2000 fps velocity threshold has to do with it's affect on living tissue. Most tissue is fairly elastic and resilient, and can withstand a fair amount of shock force without withstanding permanent damage. However, about 2000 fps seems to be the limit where shock forces are capable of stretching tissue beyond its elastic limits, thereby causing permanent damage. This is why the so-called "hydrostatic shock" effect of handguns is so anemic compared to rifles. Most handguns produce barely over half of the necessary velocity needed to damage vital organs beyond that directly and physically displaced by the projectile itself. In handguns, all that matters is the depth and diameter of the permanent wound channel. Beyond the permanent wound channel, tissue is unlikely to sustain damage. Rifles are a whole 'nother ball game though, because typically produce well over 2000 fps. This allows them to damage vital organs several inches, in some cases, beyond the immediate path of the projectile. The stretching, tearing, bruising, and crushing on tissue due to the increased effect of shock forces beyond this 2000 fps velocity threshold dramatically increases the amount of damage sustained and is the reason rifles are exponentially more effective than handguns.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

Looking at the numbers for my handloads in .308, with my Lee ballistics generator, the energy of my 168 gr .308 rounds at 300 yards exceeds the MUZZLE energy of my SKS. Wow.

 

[briansmithwins]

Bone fragments can become secondary missiles at any impact velocity. All you need to do is shatter a bone.

Yes. One of my high school buddies went on to become a radiologist. From looking at x-rays of gunshot wounds that hit bone the thing I took away is this: handguns break bones, rifles shatter bones.

Which of these was caused by a handgun and which was caused by a rifle?





BSW

 

[Maverick223]

Simple, the first is the rifle. The key to a fast moving projectile is hydrostatic shock (which requires a liquid medium ), it disturbs tissue that is not actually touched by the round. Of course there are pistols that can do the same, but you don't want to shoot most of them.

I agree with C-grunt, watermelons are my target of choice, and they're in season. Mmmm, I love the taste of GSR in the morning.

 

[psyopspec]

The key to a fast moving projectile is hydrostatic shock, it disturbs tissue that is not actually touched by the round.

That's just transfer of a massive amount of kinetic energy. The theory of hydrostatic shock relies on the presence of water. I got similar effects shooting a cinder block with a 12 Ga. slug - utterly shattered. Dry bullet, dry target, low relative humidity in atmosphere, still shattered.

Quite the power difference (rifle cartridge vs. pistol cartridge)

Don't tell the guys in the handgun forum. They're soooooo close to figuring out the whole 9/.45 thing.

 

[Maverick223]

Don't tell the guys in the handgun forum. They're soooooo close to figuring out the whole 9/.45 thing.

LOL, of course they would come back saying that there are 600NE handguns, but then again there are 700NE rifles (that won't kill you to shoot em'...but get darn close).

 

[HB]

The best part is even "wimpy" rifle rounds severely outclass most handguns. Many feel that the .223 is a varmint round at best but it smokes all conventional pistol rounds easily. Even a .22lr rifle is a pretty smoking round compared to the same load out of a pistol.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

Quite the power difference (rifle cartridge vs. pistol cartridge)
A couple weeks ago, I picked up a Savage 111 in .30-06, aside from a rather inaccurate Mosin M-44, I was never really into big bore rifles

That changed once I got my Savage on the range, it had the exhilaration, recoil, and noise and fury of the M-44, but has turned out far more accurate

one thing that amazes me is the amount of punch rifle rounds carry, they fully eclipse handgun rounds, I now understand why many say "all handgun rounds suck" or "handgun rounds are all marginal" or Clint Smith's saying "the handgun is used to fight your way back to your rifle/shotgun"

Rifle rounds sure do pack a wallop!

it's only common sense, the larger the case, the more power it has, the smaller the bullet, the more velocity it has with the same powder charge, and rimless modern 30-06 case head family, generally has more power than an old rimmed design cartridge in velocity- due to a better headspace design

once you get a your fill of that '06, then go fire a 7MM Remington Magnum or other belted magnum cartridge- it's even more of that same good thing. The 7mm RM has more power/velocity than the '06 with actually less recoil

I know a person who got the same eye opener, going from lever actions Winchester Model 94 .30-30 and Model 99 .300 Savage, to a modern Remington Model 700 .30-06

he bought the gun new at Kmart, sighted it in, and was amazed at the accuracy, and said "wow, it's so stable, every shot is right there"

to which I replied "no kidding-that's 'cuz bolt actions are more accurate"

better design, more powerful cartridge, better lockup

 

[Maverick223]

I replied "no kidding-that's 'cuz bolt actions are more accurate"

Often the case, but certainly not always. The falling block levers are very accurate, and there are some bolt guns that aren't. Most of the accuracy comes out of your barrel, not the action, and there are dozens of other factors (caliber, load, stock, trigger, et cetera...just to name a few).

 

[22-rimfire]

If you are looking for shear power, a rifle gets the nod. Even with the 357 mag round, shoot it with a rifle versus a handgun and there is a big difference at target. I consider the 357 a marginal deer hunting round from a handgun, but okay shot from a rifle within reasonable ranges.

The argument will never end and it keeps the shooting world a turning... Slow vs Fast. Slow and big versus small and fast...

 

[MacTech]

I can't help but wonder how much difference there would be if the bullet fired from a 30-06 rifle cartridge was simply larger, let's say a .45 caliber bullet driven by a 30-06 powder charge, both bullets being a modern expanding hollowpoint design....

.45-70 modern load:
300 grn 2532FPS, 50,000 PSI

.30-06:
180 grn 2800 FPS, 57,000 PSI

the speed is close, as is the pressure, how much of a factor would the bigger hole made by the projectile be?, the heavier bullet would carry more kinetic energy into the target, and displace more tissue, also create a greater hydrostatic shock wave, I'd imagine the larger bullet would dump more energy into the target, and overpenetrate less

the .45-70 has a roughly 20 grain larger powder charge, but it fires at a lower pressure, how would the recoil compare, would the lower pressure trump the 20 grain increase in powder charge? comparing my 9mm to my .45, the .45, even though it's a larger bullet, recoils in a far more controllable manner than 9mm thanks to the lower internal pressure (straight push back as opposed to back and up with 9mm)

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Ohhhh, yeah, baby. Take a pumpkin/melon/potato/water bottle, and shoot one with a handgun, even a .44 mag, and one with a full powered round like .30-'06 and wow, the difference is well-dramatized! You won't find the potato, except for a few skin flakes that drift down upon your head on the wind a minute or two later.

Quite the power difference (rifle cartridge vs. pistol cartridge)

Don't tell the guys in the handgun forum. They're soooooo close to figuring out the whole 9/.45 thing.

Hee, hee, now that's funny right there.

 

[Maverick223]

The modern 45-70 has a bit more stopping power (but neither is weak by any means), with more recoil, and a lot more penetration (due to the larger round, it carries energy better than a small one), with a smaller hydrostatic shock (due to the slower velocity). The pressure is simply a factor of the case size and the charge used. The 45-70 is a great load for relatively short engagements.