Qustion for EMT's, Paramedics, or any other medical personnel?

[williegee]

Question for EMT's, Paramedics, or any other medical personnel?

This may seem like a weird question but I was just thinking of something. In your profession, you deal with life and death situations on a routine basis. You have the knowledge, training, and experience to take quick and drastic emergency measures to save people's lives. If you were ever forced to shoot someone in self defense, are you obligated, in any way (legally or professionally) to try and help the crackhead who just tried to bash you in the head with a lead pipe but is now lying on the ground gasping for breath with a couple of Hydra-Shoks in his chest. Sounds weird, I know. But you never know what kind of an angle a shady lawyer might come at you with in the following civil suit brought on by the poor "victims" family.("You let that poor man die when you had the ability to try and save him!") Just a little something to think about.

 

[outdoorman63]

regrettably

the answer is yes...we have a duty to act up to the level of our training...would i do it dont know...but the family could have a heyday if they found out i didnt...is one of those bizzare things you hope never happens..but the worst part is we do get our lives threatened..more than most people would believe...and we have no way to protect ourselves...it sucks....

 

[goalie]

Yes. We are obligated to administer first aid to the level of our training dependent upon the equipment at hand. (example: as an ER/ICU nurse, I am not obligated to shock someone or give ACLS meds per protocol, as I do not have the defibrillator or the meds)

 

[Jick42]

Yes, unfortunately we have to provide that care, even if they just tried to kill us. If not, we are liable, can have our license pulled, and even possibly be sued!!! It sucks, but thats the way it is.

 

[tcdrennen]

It gets worse - look at the aftermath of the North Hollywood shootout; some scumbag shyster sued the LAPD for wrongful death because his client's son (one of the robber/shooters) bled out after being taken down by SWAT (he's the one who tried to carjack the pickup but didn't have the keys when SWAT rolled up in a squad and returned his full auto, point blank fire.

Yes, the officers were standing over him while he bled out - but they weren't about to call in EMTs or render 1st Aid until they were sure there were no more threats; some reports said there were more than two shooters and they were taking no chances.

City of LA settled some umpty-hundred-k dollars on shyster and robber's mom to make it go away. B&B Guns who supplied LAPD with the semi auto rifles they used to take down the BGs went out of business. LA City Council continues to pass and support laws to ensure no future gunshop will have the weapons to assist LAPD ever again. LAPD now carries AR-15s in their squads. :banghead:

And why is it getting warmer and how did we get in this handbasket?

 

[clubsoda22]

Whether or not i'm legally obligated, i would. You don't know that crackheads situation, maybe an aquaintence slipped some angel dust into one if his cigarettes and he freaked out and tried to kill you. Maybe the guy lost his last buck and is trying to survive on the streets. The second you shot him he learned that crime doesn't pay, you might as well save his life to rub it in.

After the shooting i would holster, pull the pair of gloves out of my back pocket. call 911, report a self defence shooting, dispatch ambulance with all the details and begin treatment.

In my trunk i have gloves, assorted gauze and some occlusive dressings, that's about all i can do. If i'm not near my car, i have a pair of gloves in my back pocket and a rescue breathing shield in my wallet, so, hope i didn't kill him that bad.

Yes, the officers were standing over him while he bled out - but they weren't about to call in EMTs or render 1st Aid until they were sure there were no more threats; some reports said there were more than two shooters and they were taking no chances.

About the N Hollywood thing. I work EMS in a tough city, and i sit a few blocks away with the lights off until the cops tell me that the scene is secure when it comes to any kind of violence. My butt is more important than theirs, at least in my eyes.

but the worst part is we do get our lives threatened..more than most people would believe...and we have no way to protect ourselves...it sucks....

Imagine my supprise when my cheif chewed me out for having (god forbid) pepper spray! Seems we can't have that on us while on duty in PA. Only thing standing between me an certain demise is a thin layer of kevlar (and some of the other EMT's even give me crap about that...we'll see who's the real man when THEY get a gun or knife pulled on them)

BTW, my squad recently changed from informal squad t-shirt uniforms to police style BDU uniforms complete with patches, nameplates and all. In this neighborhood, i wonder why they don't just draw big red targets on us.

 

[Moparmike]

You people have more guts than I do to be an EMT without protection. Bless you all.

 

[Bob R]

While I may be obligated to provide aid to someone who I shot , I learned enough in Anatomy that the only thing that will help the perp is the hand of their god reaching down and touching them. And that may be a stretch.

bob

 

[Kim]

I would as a physician, whether legally obligated I really don't know. In Arkansas I can carry in the hospital where I work. I own my clinic so carrying there is a no-brainer.

 

[clubsoda22]

when i'm doing clinicals, and when i start working in the hospital, it's pretty much gonna be don't ask, don't tell, deep cover.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I am a surgeon, and do a lot of the trauma surgery at our hospital. If I shoot someone at home, there really isnt anything I can do for him til he gets to the hospital, as I have no equipment here, and can't do anything without equipment. I think you could easily argue that he was a threat to you and your family as long as he was conscious. There is no legal obligation that I am aware of that would require me or any other private citizen to provide care. There are good samaritan laws that keep me from being sued if I try to provide care outside the hospital, but there is no obligation.

If he was still alive, I guess I would tell him to try holding pressure on his bullet wounds til the ambulance got there.

I suppose that is just a variation though on New York CPR...

 

[Billy Sparks]

Yes and no, this is my spin on it. The one thing that is drilled into your head from day one in EMS training is scene safety. Just because you engaged one doesn't mean there are not more. I would defer to I was waiting until the scene was safe.

On a related note in my area we stage out of the area (lights off) until the PD advises out comm center the scene is secure and then we proceed in. We do this on shootings, stabbings, assualts, attempted suicides or any other situation that the dispatcher thinks we need to.

 

[Okiecruffler]

I've given this much thought

In fact I started a thread some months back on it. I am required to render aid, but not at the risk of my person. So if I feel I'm still being threatened, " Sux to be them". In this day and age, you're just as likely to be sued for rendering aid as not, remember, if you're licenced,good samaritan laws don't mean quite the same.

 

[RandyB]

Duty to treat.

In Indiana we have no requirements to treat anyone when off duty. If I'm driving with my wife and daughter and see a car accident, I am not required to stop and render aid, let alone treat someone that I felt justified in using deadly force upon. Also when not on duty, legally I can only work as a 1st responder, not as an EMT-A. Of course, most folks work to the level of their training.

 

[wingnutx]

they weren't about to call in EMTs or render 1st Aid until they were sure there were no more threats;

The first think I learned in EMT class was to watch out for my own personal safety first. Dead EMTs don't do anybody any good.

 

[tommytrauma]

Step 1: Is the scene safe?

If I'm completely sure that the perp is no longer a threat, and that there are no secondary threats, I'll render care. I expect doing so will let me sleep better during the aftermath, and it'll be less ammo for the other side in court.

I never realized we had so many medics on the board

 

[clubsoda22]

yep, tons of us.

Tommy brings up a good point. I think it would look good in court.

 

[RAY WOODROW 3RD]

I couldn't do much...................

Being at home, I do not know what I COULD DO besides initial first responder care.
I am an EMT but being without my equipment makes me close to useless on a shooting. Besides, How am I going to stop the 15 profusely bleeding holes in his chest with just two hands?

(scene safety ALWAYS comes first)

 

[clubsoda22]

DUCT TAPE!

 

[444]

Mosby's Paramedic Textbook

Page 23:

"Duty to Act:
Emts and paramedics, whether paid or volunteer, assume a "duty" to provide emergency care wile working for an EMS service, provided that emergency assistance was requested. In most states, off-duty EMTs and paramedics have no such duty to act. However, if emergency care is initiated by an off-duty EMT or paramedic, that EMS provider becomes obligated by law to care for that patient just as if he or she were on duty. Once an EMS provider undertakes the duty to act, the provider must continue to act until patient care responsibilities have been transferred to another health care worker with equal or greater competence, or is abundantly clear that the patient no longer needs assistance."

 

[clubsoda22]

Basically all that says is if you begin treatment you can't abandon the pt. There are, of course, exceptions. If i'm on duty and treating a pt. and a derranged lunitic with a machette jumps out of the closet, i'm gone.

Interesting thought, if you are an off duty EMT involved in a SD shooting and begin treating the victim, i don't think the police can detain you until an ambulance arrives. He would be personally liable if he forcably stopped your treatment. I also believe it would be a violation of the law in PA.

 

[444]

Actually what that says is that you need to check with your state laws, but in most states, you have no duty to act if you are off duty.

 

[clubsoda22]

it's pretty much exactly how PA state law is written.

 

[444]

................and, I think it would be a mistake to attempt to work on someone you just shot (as if there was anything you could do anyway). First of all, if the guy is still alive, he is still a threat. While you are bent over him, he could grab your gun, or pull another weapon. Not to mention the fact that if he was conscious he wouldn't be real happy with you at the moment. Secondly, he may not have been alone, while your attention is focued on him, his friends might just kill you. If this happened in the right neighborhood, the bystanders might kill you. Then of course you are taking the chance of exposing yourself to biohazards (from a troll) presumably without safety gear (unless for some reason you carry stuff like this around on your person). If he dies (or for that matter, if he doesn't), you will be blamed for shooting him and then using your medical knowlege to ensure that he doesn't survive. Even if it can't be proven, it is something else you might have to defend yourself against.

 

[clubsoda22]

look, if the scene is not secure, i'm not gonna work the guy. If he's not in immediate threat of death, i'm still not gonna work him. As for bio-hazards, i carry a pair of latex gloves on me at all times. Everyone should.

And what do you mean "using medical knoledge to ensure that he doesn't survive"? I can't think of how I would do that short of putting another bullet in him...and i'm a creative guy.