R.I.A. 1911 clone safety problem

[AlexanderA]

I just bought a new R.I.A. brand 1911 clone (made in the Philippines by Armscor).

It has a strange quirk in the safety mechanism. When the hammer is cocked, and the thumb safety applied, the hammer slips off the sear, goes forward a bit, and is held by the thumb safety. Afterwards, the thumb safety cannot be moved to the "fire" position unless the hammer is again fully cocked by hand. This is not necessarily a dangerous situation (the gun still cannot fire unintentionally), but it's at least inconvenient to have to cock the hammer by hand each time the safety is applied.

Replacement of the hammer, safety, sear, and disconnector with the equivalent G.I. parts cured the problem. The G.I. safety, as designed, cams the hammer back off the sear and does not drop it forward.

I'm not sure if this is just a "sample defect" or is a problem with the design. Has anyone else run into this with an R.I.A./Armscor gun?

(FWIW, I'm not returning this under warranty because I intended to upgrade it with G.I. parts anyway.)

 

[wally]

Shouldn't be like that. Contact RAI and they should take care of you.

 

[1911Tuner]

When the hammer is cocked, and the thumb safety applied, the hammer slips off the sear, goes forward a bit, and is held by the thumb safety.

The safety does not and will not hold the hammer. If the hammer "slips" off the sear, it'll wipe the safety off faster than you can do it with your thumb.

And I'm havin' a little trouble wrappin' my head around the hammer slippin' off the sear just by engaging the safety. It can't move the sear in the right direction to slip the hammer.

The G.I. safety, as designed, cams the hammer back off the sear and does not drop it forward.

The safety doesn't cam the hammer off the sear. It only blocks the sear. If the hammer moves backward on engaging the safety, it's not correctly fitted...and it's damaging the sear crown because it forces the sear hard into the hammer.

Are you yankin' our chains?

 

[AlexanderA]

Are you yankin' our chains?

Not at all. After buying the gun, I sat down yesterday for a couple of hours with a guy that really knows his .45's, and we went over it in detail.

I'm not sure about the internal mechanics, but here is what it does:

1. When the hammer is cocked, putting on the thumb safety causes the hammer to fall forward just a bit.
2. At that point, the safety cannot be moved back to the "fire" position. Squeezing the trigger does nothing.
3. If the hammer is once again fully cocked, by pulling it back by hand, the safety can be moved to the "fire" position. Pulling the trigger releases the hammer normally.

After we substituted G.I. parts for the hammer, safety, sear, and disconnector, the gun functions normally. That is, when the safety is applied (obviously with the hammer cocked), the hammer moves very slightly rearwards (instead of falling forward) and the safety can be freely moved back to "fire." When it is, the hammer moves slightly forward to its original cocked position. In other words, manipulating the safety causes a very slight, but perceptible, movement of the hammer. This is also the case with other .45's that I have.

Inspecting the R.I.A./Armscor parts (that were replaced), it was obvious that these were second-rate castings.

Maybe you can explain what is actually happening here. I've laid out the symptoms.

 

[1911Tuner]

When the hammer is cocked, putting on the thumb safety causes the hammer to fall forward just a bit.

This is the part of the dog that won't hunt. No part of the safety touches the sear until the safety lug moves up to block the sear's movement, and it barely touches it.

If the lug doesn't block the sear...and the gap is wide enough...you can pull the trigger with the safety on and have the hammer move forward enough to do what you describe.

But not simply engaging the safety.

After we substituted G.I. parts for the hammer, safety, sear, and disconnector, the gun functions normally. That is, when the safety is applied (obviously with the hammer cocked), the hammer moves very slightly rearwards

And it's not supposed to move the hammer rearward...at all. It's bearing too hard on the sear, and forcing the sear crown into the hammer in order to make it move. The safety lug needs a little material removed from it...so that as it's engaged, it just touches the sear.

Your friend should know that.

Where in Va are you? If you're within driving distance of Lexington, NC...I'd really like to take a look at this gun with the wonky parts in it.

 

[1911Tuner]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=179653&d=1360697085

 

[JERRY]

put the original parts back in it and sent it back to RIA on their dime. that gun has some serious problems.

 

[AlexanderA]

JERRY wrote:

put the original parts back in it and sent it back to RIA on their dime. that gun has some serious problems.

Well, here's the thing-- I bought this gun primarily for the frame (and whatever frame parts were usable), since I already had an NOS GI slide and barrel I wanted to use to build a new gun. The $439 I paid for the complete gun wasn't that much more than what a bare frame would cost, when you consider FFL fees, shipping, and general aggravation. I know Sarco has stripped Philippine frames, but with them, you never know exactly what you'll get. With this, I could see exactly what I was getting, and I could walk out the door with it.

The build is now complete, and I'm satisfied. The only parts of the R.I.A. gun I ended up using were the frame itself, the grip screws and bushings, the magazine catch, the slide stop, plungers, and spring, the trigger spring, the barrel bushing, and the recoil spring, guide, and plug.

What's interesting is that the R.I.A. gun was in 9 mm, and what we ended up with is in standard .45 ACP. It turns out that the only parts (of the R.I.A./Armscor guns) that differ by caliber are the barrel, slide, magazine, extractor, and ejector. Even the barrel bushings are the same, because the outside profile of the 9 mm barrel is the same as a standard .45. (Somebody could use my leftovers to convert a .45 gun to 9 mm.)

Obviously the warranty has been voided, big time. That's perfectly OK. I'm a collector, I have a lot of old guns, and warranties basically mean nothing to me.

 

[AlexanderA]

1911Tuner wrote:

If the lug doesn't block the sear...and the gap is wide enough...you can pull the trigger with the safety on and have the hammer move forward enough to do what you describe.

But not simply engaging the safety.

Thinking about it some more, this may have been what happened. We were testing the safety when we noticed the problem. So it makes sense that the trigger was being pulled. I'm not sure. But in any case, the hammer was falling (partially) when it wasn't supposed to be. Looking at the safety that we removed (the one that came with the gun), it appears that quite a bit of material was ground off the lug, at the factory.

After we substituted G.I. parts for the hammer, safety, sear, and disconnector, the gun functions normally. That is, when the safety is applied (obviously with the hammer cocked), the hammer moves very slightly rearwards

And it's not supposed to move the hammer rearward...at all. It's bearing too hard on the sear, and forcing the sear crown into the hammer in order to make it move. The safety lug needs a little material removed from it...so that as it's engaged, it just touches the sear.

We used a brand new GI safety that did not have any material removed from the lug. So now we have the opposite problem: the original safety had too much material removed, and the replacement not enough. I'll have to take it apart and do some more adjustment.

Where in Va are you? If you're within driving distance of Lexington, NC...I'd really like to take a look at this gun with the wonky parts in it.

Northern Virginia, outside DC. Kind of a long drive.

A lot of the parts of this gun are really sub par, compared to GI parts. But what can you expect at that price point? The frame, though, appears to be within the original specs (except for the chamfered magazine well, which is actually an improvement).

 

[1911Tuner]

We used a brand new GI safety that did not have any material removed from the lug. So now we have the opposite problem: the original safety had too much material removed, and the replacement not enough.

Yep. No such thing as a drop-in part. Go slow, or you'll remove too much and be back in the same place that you were with the other one.

You can see where and how much material to remove by assembling the gun without the grip safety.