Rainier 9mm 124 RN -- Couple of issues

[hAkron]

I'm pretty new to reloading, and I've just stared reloading 9mm for my Glock 17. I picked up a box of 100 124 grn Rainier Round Nose bullets (they are plated lead) I have the RCBS Carbide 3 Die set and while I was working out crimp and seating plug adjustment I noticed that the rounded seating plug seems to deform the nose of the bullet smashing it slightly down and to the side just a bit. If I use the flatter seater plug there is still some slight flattening of the tip of the nose of the bullet, but it seems much more uniform than what I'm getting with the rounded seater plug. I know I can send 5 bullets and $20 to RCBS and they will make me a custom seater plug, but is that my next step? Do I already have what I need but I'm doing something wrong? Is the slight flattening of the tip of the bullet no cause for alarm? I would appreciate any advice.

My next question is on Load Data. The Rainer website says to use the load data for lead bullets. My Speer manual has no load data for LRN 9mm bullets. I have Winchster 231 powder. If I go to the Hodgon website it says to use WSF. I can get whatever powder I need, but I already have 231, so if anybody has used the Rainier 9mm 124 RN with 231 and have had good results, I would love to know the powder range to work in, and what sort of over all length you are using. The data I've found seems to suggest 1.169" which after doing a drop in test with a factory load VS an empty cartridge (no powder or primer) that I seated a bullet to give me ~1.169" dropped about the same place in the barrel (no measurements taken, just going by eye).

 

[LiveLife]

Are you flaring/belling your case neck before seating the bullets? I use just slight flare for Rainier/Berry's plated bullets and sometimes (depending on the bullet nose profile) get slight indentation from the seater plug. It doesn't bother me. I load them at 1.125" OAL but you can go longer/shorter as long as they will feed/chamber well in your pistols/barrels.

If you use the 125 bullet weight option, you'll get the W231/HP38 load data:

125 gr LCN Winchester 231 .356" OAL 1.125" Start 3.9 gr 1009 fps - Max 4.4 gr 1086 fps

125 gr FMJ Winchester 231 .355" OAL 1.090" Start 4.4 gr 1009 fps - Max 4.8 gr 1088 fps

 

[hAkron]

Are you flaring/belling your case neck before seating the bullets? I use just slight flare for Rainier/Berry's plated bullets and sometimes (depending on the bullet nose profile) get slight indentation from the seater plug. It doesn't bother me. I load them at 1.125" OAL but you can go longer/shorter as long as they will feed/chamber well in your pistols/barrels.

If you use the 125 bullet weight option, you'll get the W231/HP38 load data:

bds,

Thanks for the reply. I am putting a light flare on the case neck with my expanding die. The seater die is just putting a slight flat spot on the tip of the bullet. Sounds like from your experience I don't have anything to worry about.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Akron -
There is no one single RN bullet shape; all are slightly different. So I'm not surprised your bullets don't fit exactly. If you have access to a metal lathe you can modify the anvil yourself several ways to get better placement.

In the end, I think BDS is correct. The bullet is more likely to follow the case. Make sure you're getting about .010" of belling to guide the bullet into the case.

You are discovering the "issues" of having just one manual. If Speer doesn't make the bullet, then they don't have any load data in their manual. In this case a Lyman #49 would be the book of choice.

BDS is also correct about using the Hodgdon listed load for the 125gr LCN for Win 231, 3.9 to 4.4gr. The shortest OAL is 1.125". You might try a test round (no primer, no powder) as long as 1.160" since you have plated RN.

Hope this helps!

 

[hAkron]

Mr Akron -
There is no one single RN bullet shape; all are slightly different. So I'm not surprised your bullets don't fit exactly. If you have access to a metal lathe you can modify the anvil yourself several ways to get better placement.

In the end, I think BDS is correct. The bullet is more likely to follow the case. Make sure you're getting about .010" of belling to guide the bullet into the case.

You are discovering the "issues" of having just one manual. If Speer doesn't make the bullet, then they don't have any load data in their manual. In this case a Lyman #49 would be the book of choice.

BDS is also correct about using the Hodgdon listed load for the 125gr LCN for Win 231, 3.9 to 4.4gr. The shortest OAL is 1.125". You might try a test round (no primer, no powder) as long as 1.160" since you have plated RN.

Hope this helps!

Great advice. I did make a test round at 1.169. I took the barrel out of my Glock and dropped in a factory Blazer Brass FMJ and noted where it sat, then I did the same with my test round and they both appeared to seat the same. I might shorten them up some as it sounds like 1.169" is the LONGEST they should be.

 

[jeepmor]

Shove some wrigleys gum wrapper up in there and make your own seating tip. I've done this before adn it worked great. You'll sacrifice a bullet or two for setup, but the rest are blemish free.

jeepmor

 

[rg1]

http://web.archive.org/web/20050502124831/http://www.rainierballistics.com/loaddataMW.htm
http://www.rainierballistics.com/old_pages/accuratearms.htm
Here's some Rainier data. I seat FMJ RN bullets a little less than the maximum recommended length, from 1.150-1.160" depending on which bullet I'm using to take into account the slightly different bullet nose profiles. If 1.169" works for you then you're ok.

 

[Anderson Arms]

Die choice

Someone may have said this already but here goes. I had similar problems when I tried using a combination seater/crimp die with plated or lead bullets. I found only the standard seperate die sets worked.

As others said before, just make sure you have enough bell on the casings and you should be fine. I've loaded Rainer, Extreme and Berry's bullets with most of the common die brands with no problems when setup properly.

All the best!,

James

 

[918v]

First, do your 1.169" loads bottom out on the bullet, or the case mouth in the chamber? If the bullet, seat them deeper.

I'd run these between 1.120" and 1.150" from 3.8 to 4.2grs of 231. For example, load 5 each at 3.8grs/1.150", 4grs/1.150", and 4.2grs/1/150". Then try 1.140" and so forth.

 

[rfwobbly]

I might shorten them up some as it sounds like 1.169" is the LONGEST they should be.

Not only is 1.169" the longest that will stack in the mag and feed, but it is too hard to measure, and leaves no room for OAL variations. Use rounded off numbers like 1.160". They are much easier to read on a caliper and if your press allows OAL growth of .006" you're still way under the max number.

 

[jja327]

One possibility is by using a 3-die set where the bullet seating and crimp are done in the same die, the crimp is forming before the bullet is fully seated.

Try backing out the die an extra turn so it does not crimp. Then adjust for proper bullet seating. Check if the deformation cleared up. Once the bullets are seated you can back out the seating adjustment and turn the die in to only crimp. It is an extra step but may clear up your problems.

The Rainer bullets are fairly soft. I load them using a Lee 4-die set where the crimp is done as a separate step and have no issues with .45 ACP 200 gr SWC and 38 Special 148 gr DWEC.

 

[J_McLeod]

I loaded and shot about 25 this week. I used 3.7 and 4.0 gr of 231 with an OAL of 1.15X. The 4.0 shot well, but the 3.7 failed to cycle in my XD, PT 709S or PF9.

 

[paperpuncher49]

Typically, I load 124 grain Berrys (plated lead) for the 9mm. I have found 4.2 gr of 231 to adequately operate the action, yet not beat the crap out of the firearm.

 

[GLOOB]

My (slightly beyond) max loads with 124 gr Berry's and W231 feel about the same as F.C. Even max load is listed at a piddling 28,800 psi for jacketed bullets.

4.2 doesn't even make the starting load, per Hodgon. It certainly won't cycle a Gen4 G19.

 

[J_McLeod]

Yes, it does. Rainier bullets are meant to be shot with lead reloading data. For a 125 gr LCN, Hodgdon recommends 3.9 - 4.4 gr Win 231.

 

[LiveLife]

Since this discussion regarding plated bullets have come up several times whether to use jacketed or lead load data, I will just speak from personal experience.

15+ years ago when I started reloading, some of commercially available plated bullets came with thinner copper plating that stripped off when pushed to high - max jacketed load data. So I used lead or low-mid range jacketed load data. Now days, commercial plated bullets like Rainier, Berry's, PowerBond, etc. come with thicker, higher quality plating that won't separate when pushed hard.

So now, I focus on the bullet diameter to determine the load data I use. Rainier advertises they size their plated bullets at .355", same as jacketed while Berry's at .3555" (.356" effective) and PowerBond at .3555". For me, larger diameter bullets provide better obturation and tighter bullet-to-barrel fit for more consistent chamber pressures and shot groups (and thus require less powder charge for same velocity as jacketed diameter). I tend to push the Rainier bullets harder while loading Berry's/PowerBond bullets at mid range jacketed load data (sizing for 40/45/38 bullets vary, so check).

Many claim Berry's "says" to use jacketed load data and that's not entirely true. If you check Berry's website, it says to not exceed mid-range jacketed load data.

When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

As to how fast to push Berry's bullets,

but as a rule of thumb, we recommend you don't shoot our plated bullets over 1200 feet-per-second. Our 44's actually shoot best around 1150 fps. 45's are generally good at 850-900 fps. Our bullets are not recommended for magnum velocities.

 

[918v]

It certainly won't cycle a Gen4 G19.

Many factory loads won't cycle that gun either.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I get great results from Rainier plated bullets in either .355" or .356" (listed as a .38 Super bullet) using jacketed data, just stay 10% below max. Velocities are very close to that predicted with jacketed data.
Seating and crimping in two separate steps makes for better results with plated bullets. I like the Redding taper crimp to finish off the 9mm process, it's got a very shallow crimp angle compared to Lee, so it's less sensitive to minor diff's in case length and easier to adjust.
I've had the Rainier .356" 130 grain RN up to 1,275 fps in a .38 Super and 1,200 fps in a Glock 17L with no problems and excellent accuracy.