Raising the Comb/POI for Skeet/Trap/Sporting Clays ???

[twofewscrews]

Went trap shooting for the first time a couple weeks ago. Hit 7 out of 50, horrible, but I've never shot at a moving target before and didn't expect anything really. I felt I was shooting low and wondered about "moving" the POI. I've been told that raising the comb by 1/16" (.0625") will raise the POI by roughly 2 inches at 30 yards. Is this more or less true?

The shotgun I'm using has an adjustable comb so raising it by 1/4", 1/2", or 3/4" is non issue. I understand that practice and patterning rather then gun modifications will improve my game but I'm a curious fellow.

In this case raising it by 1/4" would raise the POI 8" at 30 yards, which is a bit much but maybe not. Not super concerned if my math is 100% but rather if raising the comb will in fact result in a higher POI.

So does raising the comb raise the POI or did I misunderstand something?

 

[Milkmaster]

Yes raising the comb will raise your point of aim. Shooting trap you are shooting a rising target. When I patterned my shotgun, I wanted a 60/40 pellet pattern when putting the bead on the target. It has worked fine all these years. Something like this...


The difference in a real world for me was that I see the target above the bead when shooting. My field gun which shoots lower requires me to cover up the target with the bead when shooting. That's a simplistic way of describing what I see when shooting.

 

[Telekinesis]

Raising the comb will raise the point of impact. To put it in rifle terms, the rifle front sight is the bead, and the rifle rear sight is your eye. Move the rear sight up = moving your eye up = moving your comb up = point of impact shifts up.

This is also one reason that consistent head placement is so important in shotgun sports.


It’s been a while since I did the math so I can’t comment specifically on your numbers, but if we assume for the moment that they are correct… 8” does sound like a lot until you think about the overall size of your pattern at 30 yards.

The POA/POI relationship is something that can vary a lot between different shooters. Personally for American trap I like having almost my entire pattern above the bead. But then again I shoot quickly and am taking the clays before they hit the apex and start falling. On the other hand, for International trap I prefer a slightly flatter shooting gun because you can have low targets. Most people do seem to settle on a 60/40 split and there’s nothing wrong with that.



Good luck with trap. If you’re still new to shooting moving targets, see if they’ll let you lock down the thrower (so it is throwing the same target every time as opposed to the normal “random” target). That will help you improve significantly faster than if you just take the random targets as they come.

Also consider going to a skeet field and shoot from position 7 (right next to the low house thrower) and just shoot targets going away. It’s usually easier to hit AND it’s easier to see where you are missing (look for the wad after you take the shot).

 

[Barnfixer]

Have you patterned your gun to confirm the POI?

 

[kudu]

I prefer to have a 80/20 pattern on my trap gun, want the majority well above what I am seeing for the target. I like the target to be on top of the bead which puts my pattern roughly centered and covering it by the time the shot intercepts the target. I just dabble with trap, but even with skeet I want at minimum a 60/40 pattern, I want the target on top of the bead so if it does a dip I can try to push the gun down. A lot of people want to cover the bird, that is all great until the bird hits an air pocket and drops and as you have it covered the shooter never sees it.

 

[243winxb]

So does raising the comb raise the POI

Yes. Trap 9" high is good for starters. The bird should be shot while its on the rise. New shooters will fire late, shooting over the bird.

In 1970, trap & skeet Brownings Citori 's had the same high comb.

Today, trap guns have the high comb. Field & Hunters clays are different, because the gun is not on the shoulder when calling for the birds, so less comb.

For me, I always want to see the target, on top of the bead.

 

[Armored farmer]

Don't try mathematical equation to raise the poi.
Start adding moleskin and padding until you see separation between your front bead and middle bead. Trapshooters call it "figure 8".
Then you gotta keep your head on that stock.

 

[twofewscrews]

Have you patterned your gun to confirm the POI?

I patterned it last summer and if my memory serves was 50/50.

 

[Roverguy]

If you are serious about this, you need to 1) pattern the gun, and 2) have your gun fitment checked by someone sufficiently knowledgeable to do so.

 

[twofewscrews]

Raising the comb will raise the point of impact. To put it in rifle terms, the rifle front sight is the bead, and the rifle rear sight is your eye. Move the rear sight up = moving your eye up = moving your comb up = point of impact shifts up.

This is also one reason that consistent head placement is so important in shotgun sports.


It’s been a while since I did the math so I can’t comment specifically on your numbers, but if we assume for the moment that they are correct… 8” does sound like a lot until you think about the overall size of your pattern at 30 yards.

The POA/POI relationship is something that can vary a lot between different shooters. Personally for American trap I like having almost my entire pattern above the bead. But then again I shoot quickly and am taking the clays before they hit the apex and start falling. On the other hand, for International trap I prefer a slightly flatter shooting gun because you can have low targets. Most people do seem to settle on a 60/40 split and there’s nothing wrong with that.



Good luck with trap. If you’re still new to shooting moving targets, see if they’ll let you lock down the thrower (so it is throwing the same target every time as opposed to the normal “random” target). That will help you improve significantly faster than if you just take the random targets as they come.

Also consider going to a skeet field and shoot from position 7 (right next to the low house thrower) and just shoot targets going away. It’s usually easier to hit AND it’s easier to see where you are missing (look for the wad after you take the shot).

I was thinking about going 60/40 or even 70/30 but I'm so inexperienced I figured I should pattern and play another round first.

Thanks for the advice regarding position 7. I'll give it a shot.

I took a good friend with me too and he had also never been shooting so we only shot from one position and just had some fun.

 

[twofewscrews]

If you are serious about this, you need to 1) pattern the gun, and 2) have your gun fitment checked by someone sufficiently knowledgeable to do so.

Serious?

Does my avatar suggest that I am anything other then serious?

 

[twofewscrews]

Don't try mathematical equation to raise the poi.
Start adding moleskin and padding until you see separation between your front bead and middle bead. Trapshooters call it "figure 8".
Then you gotta keep your head on that stock.

You just made the "figure 8" thing make sense to me. I kept thinking how do they see a "figure 8" if one bead is behind the other.

I got risers that raise the comb .25", .5", or .75" so I'll start with the .25" first and see where that lands me.

 

[twofewscrews]

I prefer to have a 80/20 pattern on my trap gun, want the majority well above what I am seeing for the target. I like the target to be on top of the bead which puts my pattern roughly centered and covering it by the time the shot intercepts the target. I just dabble with trap, but even with skeet I want at minimum a 60/40 pattern, I want the target on top of the bead so if it does a dip I can try to push the gun down. A lot of people want to cover the bird, that is all great until the bird hits an air pocket and drops and as you have it covered the shooter never sees it.

I was attempting to track the clay in my periphery vision and bring the shotgun up to where my eyes were pointing which would hopefully be in front of the clay. The sight picture I was looking for was the bead leading the clay by a couple inches and the clay being visable over the bead. I felt that I was shooting low even though I felt i was firing at the right time. I know I need to invest more time/effort in order to get better but I also think that raising my POI might be helpful.
I will get out there again. I'm hooked.

 

[kudu]

The sight picture I was looking for was the bead leading the clay by a couple inches and the clay being visable over the bead

If you had the target visible over the bead of a field gun more than likely you were shooting about a foot under the bird. With a rising target off of a trap bunker I have to cover the bird with the barrel and then sometimes only break the bottom edge off if I am using a field gun. You want to see quite a bit of rib by building up the comb. It''s going to take some time to get to where you can get into a groove and be consistent. If possible ask to try another shooter's trap gun and and ask advice on where to hold and break targets. There are the occasional shotgun snobs, but most guys are happy to help out a new shooter.

 

[Remington1911]

Another thing I would say aside from the good advice you already have is the games are different. Trap is a very different game vs. sporting clays. You should IMHO before you start changing your gun, and I think a strong chance of "chasing your tail" is getting a good instructor to go shoot with you. After a while you can see the pattern, and people that have done this a while can tell you, you are below, above, behind.....whatever. From reading your posts I come away thinking that you have the idea that you are low on the target. That might not be the case at all....you could be behind it real easy for new people to do, you said yourself you never shot something moving before, you could be getting your lead all off.

After you get to where you know where your problem lies you can take time to address it. Right now it sounds like you might like doing this. Start busting more and I have yet to see anyone that does not like doing it.....it is fun. And still I will stop and watch to see what crazy directions busted clays will fly off to. It is so much fun.....but you first have to know the real reason why you are missing.

For what it is worth I love sporting clays, and found the other games too much the same for me. Sporting clays is more like hunting IMHO. And I still have real issues with rabbits....clays that roll along the ground, those are so much fun to hit.

 

[tominboise]

I was attempting to track the clay in my periphery vision and bring the shotgun up to where my eyes were pointing which would hopefully be in front of the clay. The sight picture I was looking for was the bead leading the clay by a couple inches and the clay being visable over the bead..

Regarding your sight picture - you should be staring hard at the bird. Actually trying to see the ridges on it. That sounds like an exaggeration but after you shoot trap a bit, you'll see what I mean. There is no tracking with peripheral vision. Stare at the bird and swing through it.

 

[PapaG]

Do you know for sure you’re shooting low? Pattern the gun and adjust accordingly. If you don’t establish where poi is, all the adjusting in the world will accomplish nothing.

 

[Bill M.]

I raise my comb about 1/4 inch from sporting clays to trap. One reason for the higher comb (and POI) for trap is so that you do not have to completely cover the bird with the barrel. Seeing the bird makes the angled shots easier. With a flat shooting gun you have to cover the bird and loose sight of it. My suggestion is to set the gun up like the first picture up above and shoot it for a while. Then, if you find yourself shooting a lot of trap, raise it 1/4" and put it on paper and then go shoot. Some experienced trap shooters just shoot the high POI at the other games.

 

[paul harm]

Being a skeet and SCs shooter, I also like to see the leads, BUT not with trap. The angles aren't all that much. You just have to shoot it awhile and you'll do it automatically. Just stare at the bird, the rest will just happen. With a 30" barrel a 1/8" of adjustment on the comb will equal 4" at 40 yards. You have to do a little math to know where to start. And if you're shooting trap as you should with the bird still raising, you really don't want any shot below the bird, it's just wasted. But shooting a shotgun is shooting a moving gun so everyone is a little different. The pattern plate only tells you the % of shot in a circle, not where the pattern is on a moving target with a moving gun. Good luck..

 

[kennedy]

raising the comb will also help keep your head vertical and your eyes level helping you see bird.

 

[kalielkslayer]

I shoot 50Xs as much skeet as I shoot trap so I’m not really a good source for trap specific information. That said, in my experience, most misses aren’t up/down, they are lead, failure to follow through, shooting behind the bird. Most trap shots aren’t directly away from you so there is some lead involved.

1 day of trap shooting, especially the first time shooting at moving targets, wouldn’t get me to alter my gun. I would pattern the gun first.

Like many here, I prefer to have the bird over my bead. I’m shootings a hunting gun that fortunately is about 75/25. I’ve patterned it with every load I’ve ever developed for it, but not much with factory.

Just my experience, I routinely break targets/drop birds when 1) I think I’m too far under the target, 2) I think I over led the target.

When I miss it’s usually because I shoot behind, or over the target.

I shoot a lot of chukar. Typically they are flying downhill over steep terrain. It’s hard to get too far under them unless I mounted the gun too high. Far too many times I have had coveys flush below me going sideways. I get on a bird, fire, the bird behind it drops. Never have I accidentally hit the bird in front of it.

Since you’re new at this, be patient. That micro computer between your ears will figure it out a little bit more everytime you’re successful breaking a target.

 

[entropy]

Don't try mathematical equation to raise the poi.
Start adding moleskin and padding until you see separation between your front bead and middle bead. Trapshooters call it "figure 8".
Then you gotta keep your head on that stock.

He's using a gun with an adjustable comb.

First, twofewscrews, watch this:



This shows that a raised comb is not necessary to shoot good scores in Trap. That said, many trapshooters, myself included, do shoot a higher POI. I shoot 70/30 with my trap guns, 60/40 for SC and hunting.

The advice to lock the trap so it is throwing straightaways on post #3 is sound advice. Start flat and keep shooting 5 birds on each height setting, and use the one where you break all 5 solidly, as in making smoke balls. Set it there and leave it.

That videos shows you the leads for the various angles shot in Trap. Setting your POI and learning the angles, as well as the rest of the advice in the video will get you to shooting 20 consistently. That's when the fun starts. It's all in your head after that.