Ran across a Rem 1858- need a hint

[Oldfalguy]

at a small gun show on sunday and it was being offered as an original-
$1200 and in nice shape for a possible original-
However, I wasn't sure about it- the forward end of the trigger guard was much slimmer than my Uberti but I do not think that really helps me much.
No serial numbers visible anywhere onthe outside-did not remove the cylinder. Did they even use serial numbers back then on Remingtons? I thought perhaps the military ones might have been but this one may have been a civilian at best or a repro that had been worked on.

There was no cartouche/mark on the left grip (but heck, that could be faked quick-
I have seen originals but honestly do not recall anything from them that helps me.
Anyone got any hints or link to where I might learn something?
Most pics I have seen just do not have the details I think I need-

 

[arcticap]

There's a thread below with some pictures of an original, and a link to a dealer with many close ups of originals where you can clearly see some of the proper markings.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397291

Markings can be removed during refinishing, but that would lessen the value.
Sometimes optical aids are needed to see all of the fine details.
But there are also people selling fakes, either knowingly or unknowingly.
A reputable dealer will spend time answering all of your questions and concerns. If he isn't willing, then maybe he's not an expert or has something to hide. A good vendor will give you his card or phone number to contact him after the show for a follow up about the gun. If he wants to sell the gun, then he should at least be willing to give you that much to give you time to contemplate the purchase.
Did you obtain his?

 

[arcticap]

Here's some info.:

First of all, on a New Model Navy, the barrel top flat is stamped: "PATENTED DEC. 17, 1861. MANUFACTURED BY REMINGTON'S, ILION, N.Y."

A New Model Army will have: "PATENTED SEPT. 14, 1858, E. REMINGTON & SONS, ILION, N.Y., U.S.A. NEW MODEL"

A Beals will have the markings: "BEALS PATENT, SEPT. 14, 1858. MANUFACTURED BY REMINGTON, ILION, N.Y."

If there are no barrel markings, it has been filed off and refinished, and may or may not be original. There should be no reference to "Black Powder Only" or such markings, as the originals didn't need such a warning. There should be no proof marks as seen on Italian guns, and the serial number should appear on the bottom barrel flat and the side of the grip frame, under the wood. Nowhere else.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=20431.0

There were three progressive models; the Remington-Beals Army & Navy (1860-1862), the "Old Model" Army & Navy (1862-1863), and the New Model Army & Navy (1863-1875).[1] The three models are nearly identical in size and appearance. Subtle but noticeable differences in hammers, loading levers, and cylinders help identify each model. The "Old Model" Remington actually transitioned into "New Model" appearance by late 1862, slowly transforming throughout 1862, as continual improvement suggestions came from the U. S. Ordnance Department.[2][3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_1858

 

[madcratebuilder]

I have just spent the last five hours researching NMA's. I'm looking at one and was trying to get a grasp on values. $1200 should buy a nice specimen. I ran across several that sold in the $900 area that looked like nice revolvers.
PM me your e-mail addy and I'll send you some photos of the one I'm looking at. The seller sent me almost two dozen photos that show marking very well. Maybe that well help you.

 

[Mike OTDP]

The serial number for an original should be on the barrel under the loading lever. I have occasionally seen them on the frame, but under the loading lever is the first place to check.

 

[Oldfalguy]

Thank you all-
MCB will PM my addy for pics-
The vendor was busy when I was looking at it and did not get a card but will see him next show perhaps. I did not drop the loading lever to check-Oops- With the safety straps on them at shows its a little more bother to handle one and check them out-remove cylinder- If I see one that has good marking on the barrel etc. then I would have no problem asking to have the strap removed.
He told me a fella traded the pistol to him for a ML for it- He had a couple of older ones on the table that did not look repro at all. The nicest one I have seen so far was over 2K in Tulsa and it probably had 80-85% finish.