Range Report - Savage 308 sighting in and load testing.

[Nuke8401]

Mods, please move if in the wrong place.
I took my budget PR build to the range today to sight in some 168gr loads out to 400yds.
It started life as a Savage Scout in 308. The only thing left is the action. Criterion 18" 1-10 barrel with a comp, Boyds stock/barrle/lug bedded, bottom metal with two 10 round and one 5 round MAGPUL Mags, SWFA 5-20 SS scope, TPS rings, EGW 20 MOA base/bedded, Harris bipod, Rifle Basix trigger upgrade. I loaded 10 each of Hornady 168gr VMAX, ELD match and HPBT. I also loaded some bulk 168 HPBT from midway. All with 40gr IMR 4064, CCI LRP, Lapua brass. I realize the value of 3 shot groups in minimal but I was happy with both the VMAX and ELDM at 400 yards. I only had 3 of each left at 400 after sighting in at 100 and verifying 200x & 300 holds. I guess my takeaway is that like almost all of my guns, it is more accurate than I can shoot it. I have 2460, TAC, 4895 and VARGET powders also. So my next step is more loads of the AMAX and ELDMs and shoot some 10 round groups. I also shot some steel at 400 as was happy with the results.
Any thoughts or advice is welcome.
Thanks, David

 

[Larry in wyoming]

I guess it all depends on where you are looking to go with it but it sounds like a pretty good start towards a precision rifle. Some load development will show us what you REALLY have. Have fun with the range time. Maybe some bib or berger or other match grade bullets to show its true potential.

 

[Nuke8401]

I guess it all depends on where you are looking to go with it but it sounds like a pretty good start towards a precision rifle. Some load development will show us what you REALLY have. Have fun with the range time. Maybe some bib or berger or other match grade bullets to show its true potential.

Thanks for the tip on Berger and bib bullets. I started reading the bib page and they are over my head but I will go back and read again/more. I think my goals are to refine my reloading process and then really just do what you said which is to see how far I can take this set-up. Honestly, I think I'm already limited by my current skill level. I'm doing the same with a stock Ruger American Ranch in 5.56. In my younger days I had big ideas of hunting mule deer and elk in open country but the responsibilities of the military and family life kept me busy. Now just knowing I could make a good shot will likely be enough.

 

[Larry in wyoming]

Take your best load and tweak the seating depth a couple of thousandth longer and shorter and see what it does to your groups. I was amazed the first time I tried it. One certain length cut my group in half. A different length was terrible. Only experimentation will tell you what works and what doesn't. You are currently running minute of deer heart right now at 400yds so.....

 

[Charlie98]

Maybe some bib or berger or other match grade bullets to show its true potential.

Don't discount the old standby... the Sierra Match King. It's still the best bullet I've used in my box stock Savage 10 TAC.

 

[Nuke8401]

Take your best load and tweak the seating depth a couple of thousandth longer and shorter and see what it does to your groups. I was amazed the first time I tried it. One certain length cut my group in half. A different length was terrible. Only experimentation will tell you what works and what doesn't. You are currently running minute of deer heart right now at 400yds so.....

Thanks, based on your post I did some reading and like you said, it seems finding the best bullet/power combination is the first step then working on seating depth.
I did attempt to find the lands by using a sized/empty cartridge with just a bullet but it looks like I will be limited by mag length. I think could load to a max of 2.850-2.860" and still fit the mags and load without damaging/sticking the bullet.
I watch a video by Erik Cortina "Chasing the lands is stupid" and he said starting .020 off the lands is safe so I think my max lengths would be:
155g HDY ELDM jam length 2.872" - .020 = 2.852" (if it fits)
- I lost my mind in my first post, the HDY ELDMs I have are 155g not 168g.
178g HDY 178 BTHP jam length 2.855" = 2.835"
175g SMK BTHP jam length 2.878" = 2.858" (if it fits)
So my next steps are:
- load 5? each of the bullets and powders I have at 2.800"
- load 5? each same but 2.803" and 2.796" and evaluate,
I could see this taking a lot of bullets!
One last thing, I was crimping all my rounds with a lee Factory Crimp die so going forward I'm just going to size and seat the bullets.
Lots to learn but it keeps me engaged.

 

[Nuke8401]

Don't discount the old standby... the Sierra Match King. It's still the best bullet I've used in my box stock Savage 10 TAC.

Just so happens I have 200ea 175g SMKs and will be working them in to my process.
- I have about 50 loaded from 2014 (the last time I shot the 308) with 42.2 4064 at 2.800" COL
So I'll see how they do and go from there.
Thanks

 

[Larry in wyoming]

Sounds like tou are on the right track.

5 each should be enough to let you know if your headed in the right direction. Keep us up to date.

 

[JFrank]

Mods, please move if in the wrong place.
I took my budget PR build to the range today to sight in some 168gr loads out to 400yds.
It started life as a Savage Scout in 308. The only thing left is the action. Criterion 18" 1-10 barrel with a comp, Boyds stock/barrle/lug bedded, bottom metal with two 10 round and one 5 round MAGPUL Mags, SWFA 5-20 SS scope, TPS rings, EGW 20 MOA base/bedded, Harris bipod, Rifle Basix trigger upgrade. I loaded 10 each of Hornady 168gr VMAX, ELD match and HPBT. I also loaded some bulk 168 HPBT from midway. All with 40gr IMR 4064, CCI LRP, Lapua brass. I realize the value of 3 shot groups in minimal but I was happy with both the VMAX and ELDM at 400 yards. I only had 3 of each left at 400 after sighting in at 100 and verifying 200x & 300 holds. I guess my takeaway is that like almost all of my guns, it is more accurate than I can shoot it. I have 2460, TAC, 4895 and VARGET powders also. So my next step is more loads of the AMAX and ELDMs and shoot some 10 round groups. I also shot some steel at 400 as was happy with the results.
Any thoughts or advice is welcome.
Thanks, David
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Where are your load work up targets ? How did you arrive at 40 gr ?

 

[35 Whelen]

Those are excellent 400 yd. groups! I don't really know what your end goal is, but for just shooting, I think you've hit on a pretty good load.

35W

 

[JDGray]

Unless your hunting, you can just open bolt, drop in a cartridge. This way you are not limited on mag length. Great shooting!

 

[Nuke8401]

Where are your load work up targets ? How did you arrive at 40 gr ?

These are my first loads since putting the rifle in the safe in 2014. I was shooting exclusively 175g SMKs (42.2g of 4064) at that time but really haden't nailed down that load. I picked 40g of 4064 as it was middle of the weight for the 168s I had on hand and on the low end for the 155g ELDMs on the Hornady app. I think the Hornday app runs on the low side compared to the Hodgen site. I read alot but I might be running blind on a starting load thinking middle of the road data and working up is how I should go?
Unless I just started too low?
I do need to figure out a tracking system for loads/results going forward so I don't lose my way/repeat?

 

[tdbmd]

I have basically settled on Varget for the .308 and 7mm-08

 

[Larry in wyoming]

I have a small 3 ring binder. I cut the group from the target with the load data and put it in the binder. One section in the binder for each cartridge. If I had different loads for different rifles chambered the same I'd give each rifle its own section. Easy peasy

 

[Nuke8401]

I have a small 3 ring binder. I cut the group from the target with the load data and put it in the binder. One section in the binder for each cartridge. If I had different loads for different rifles chambered the same I'd give each rifle its own section. Easy peasy

Dang, cutting out the groups to make them fit in a binder without folding/unfolding never occured to me!
Thanks

 

[Varminterror]

@Nuke8401 - can you run me through these; what’s in your 100yrd group photos? Are these photos groups, or sighting also? Meaning - were adjustments made between these shots at 100yrds?

Something seems amiss when ~1moa groups at 100yrds turn into ~3/8moa groups at 400yrds. Being blessed by statistical probability does happen, but that’s REALLY odd to see it happen twice out of 3 attempts. That’s really remarkable.

 

[Varminterror]

So my next steps are:
- load 5? each of the bullets and powders I have at 2.800"
- load 5? each same but 2.803" and 2.796" and evaluate,

Way too much work for the type of shooting the rifle is designed to do.

Here’s the problem: you COULD try all of these bullets with all of these powders and a bunch of different brass and a bunch of different primers at a bunch of different seating lengths, and then you’d need a new barrel and a second mortgage, and would have to start all over with the new barrel. So most people make the mistake then of shooting less and less rounds per combination, for example, 3 shot groups, and in the end, they’ve ran themselves into a realm of statistical invalidity, and they’re making comparisons based on highly variable, highly erroneous data, and the conclusions drawn therefrom are meaningless - statistically invalid.

An example of this is your own results, which I mentioned above - something is very sideways if ~1moa groups at 100yrds turn into ~3/8moa groups at 400yrds. But we CAN and DO see this happen occasionally, especially with 3 shot groups, because of statistically valid, yet apparently anomalous results - but 68.2% of shots from a 1moa rifle will fall inside ~1/3moa. So when we shoot low round count groups, sometimes we get a 3 shot group from a 1moa rifle which is 1.5moa, and sometimes we get a .25moa group, only because our group shot count is insufficient to create statistically valid results.

Load development really shouldn’t take very many rounds - I usually don’t spend more than 50 rounds to get loads where I need them. I don’t mess around with multiple powders, I don’t mess around with tons of bullets, I just develop loads using proven components and proven methods. In most of my barrels, I spend more ammo breaking in the barrel than doing any kind of load development.

It’s really easy to waste so much time, energy, and ammo, that using cheap bullets can end up costing more than simply using a better bullet and eating a little more incremental cost.

Don’t chase rabbits which won’t get you fed. If you want long range precision loads, then if Newberry, Audette, Long, or Satterlee aren’t your next steps, you’re wasting energy.

 

[Nuke8401]

Way too much work for the type of shooting the rifle is designed to do.

Here’s the problem: you COULD try all of these bullets with all of these powders and a bunch of different brass and a bunch of different primers at a bunch of different seating lengths, and then you’d need a new barrel and a second mortgage, and would have to start all over with the new barrel. So most people make the mistake then of shooting less and less rounds per combination, for example, 3 shot groups, and in the end, they’ve ran themselves into a realm of statistical invalidity, and they’re making comparisons based on highly variable, highly erroneous data, and the conclusions drawn therefrom are meaningless - statistically invalid.

An example of this is your own results, which I mentioned above - something is very sideways if ~1moa groups at 100yrds turn into ~3/8moa groups at 400yrds. But we CAN and DO see this happen occasionally, especially with 3 shot groups, because of statistically valid, yet apparently anomalous results - but 68.2% of shots from a 1moa rifle will fall inside ~1/3moa. So when we shoot low round count groups, sometimes we get a 3 shot group from a 1moa rifle which is 1.5moa, and sometimes we get a .25moa group, only because our group shot count is insufficient to create statistically valid results.

Load development really shouldn’t take very many rounds - I usually don’t spend more than 50 rounds to get loads where I need them. I don’t mess around with multiple powders, I don’t mess around with tons of bullets, I just develop loads using proven components and proven methods. In most of my barrels, I spend more ammo breaking in the barrel than doing any kind of load development.

It’s really easy to waste so much time, energy, and ammo, that using cheap bullets can end up costing more than simply using a better bullet and eating a little more incremental cost.

Don’t chase rabbits which won’t get you fed. If you want long range precision loads, then if Newberry, Audette, Long, or Satterlee aren’t your next steps, you’re wasting energy.

I understand your points, especially the meaningful data. I did say in my open post that the 3 shot groups were of minimal value (I was short on ammo). All of these groups were without adjustments. I had 10 rounds of each ammo plus some blem 168 handloads. I used the blems to get my initial 100 zero and then three rounds of each load at 100 which are pictured. One round of each at 200 and 300 for elevation checks, then three of each at 400. That left me two of each of the AMAX and ELDs which I shot some steel at 400 for fun. My goal is to see how far I can go with this rifle with what I already have on hand plus maybe some different bullets. Yes my 100 vs 400 yard groups don't make sense but then again I/my skill, or lack of, is as much a part of these results as the mechancal accuracy of the gun. After thinking about it, I may have been more focused on the fundimentals when shooting the 400 yard shots, or just as likely I had 6 lucky shots. You have much more experience in this area than I do as this is my first rifle where best accuracy is my primary goal. So maybe I have some lessons to learn. At this point in my life I have time and a range near by and my goal is to get the best accuracy from my guns with "over the counter" components (this goal is maturing after reading about the F-class shooters=way over the top for me).
Thanks for you comments and sharing your experience.
From my first post;
"I realize the value of 3 shot groups in minimal but I was happy with both the VMAX and ELDM at 400 yards. I only had 3 of each left at 400 after sighting in at 100 and verifying 200x & 300 holds. I guess my takeaway is that like almost all of my guns, it is more accurate than I can shoot it."

 

[Peakbagger46]

Nice rifle and good results at distance! My one precision(ish) rifle is a .308 and she shoots 168g bullets really really well at 100y. Some time ago I developed a load with 178gELDX with Varget and haven’t looked back. Much better performance in the wind at 400-700y.

 

[JFrank]

I understand your points, especially the meaningful data. I did say in my open post that the 3 shot groups were of minimal value (I was short on ammo). All of these groups were without adjustments. I had 10 rounds of each ammo plus some blem 168 handloads. I used the blems to get my initial 100 zero and then three rounds of each load at 100 which are pictured. One round of each at 200 and 300 for elevation checks, then three of each at 400. That left me two of each of the AMAX and ELDs which I shot some steel at 400 for fun. My goal is to see how far I can go with this rifle with what I already have on hand plus maybe some different bullets. Yes my 100 vs 400 yard groups don't make sense but then again I/my skill, or lack of, is as much a part of these results as the mechancal accuracy of the gun. After thinking about it, I may have been more focused on the fundimentals when shooting the 400 yard shots, or just as likely I had 6 lucky shots. You have much more experience in this area than I do as this is my first rifle where best accuracy is my primary goal. So maybe I have some lessons to learn. At this point in my life I have time and a range near by and my goal is to get the best accuracy from my guns with "over the counter" components (this goal is maturing after reading about the F-class shooters=way over the top for me).
Thanks for you comments and sharing your experience.
From my first post;
"I realize the value of 3 shot groups in minimal but I was happy with both the VMAX and ELDM at 400 yards. I only had 3 of each left at 400 after sighting in at 100 and verifying 200x & 300 holds. I guess my takeaway is that like almost all of my guns, it is more accurate than I can shoot it."

Three shot test groups are fairly normal while tuning for long range BR competition, I’ve used two shots per increment many times as well. I’ve attached a thousand yard charge ladder, tell me which increment would you chose ?

 

[Nuke8401]

Three shot test groups are fairly normal while tuning for long range BR competition, I’ve used two shots per increment many times as well. I’ve attached a thousand yard charge ladder, tell me which increment would you chose ?

LY30.9 but since the "groups" are trending smaller it seems continuing to increase the charge would be the next step until the trend reversed. Assuming you aren't over charging/getting excessive pressure.
I'm just not that confident in my shooting ability at this point.
But then again if I shot a ten round group and had two shots significantly out from the others, I would hesitate to discount them. So, when are you confident to say "that one was me"? I have significant experience in action pistol and I'm pretty confident calling shots with a pistol but not so much with a rifle as my perception is the error is much smaller.

 

[Varminterror]

Three shot test groups are fairly normal while tuning for long range BR competition

This works in this application because the consistency of the population determines the sample volume required to achieve a desired confidence interval.

When a rifle is shooting 10rnds into half-MOA, we know a quarter-inch deflection between two variables is a deflection. When a rifle is shooting 10 shots into an inch at 100yrds, we have far less confidence that a quarter, even a half inch difference in group size between two variable sets is actually a meaningful difference. The OP’s 100 vs. 400yrd targets are a perfect example, that result isn’t possible by any other explanation other than mechanical error - which effectively means the 100yrd groups are meaningless. If dude can hang onto 3/8moa groups at 400 time and time again, we know a hell of a lot more about the rifle than we could see on the page with the 100yrd groups.

Simply, as our error grows - as our group size grows - our number of shots required to determine validity of differences in observations between groups also grows.

That’s one reason why the Satterlee method tends to work well for so many folks: not many folks are actually good at shooting 600+ yards, whereas loading to single digit SD’s is pretty simple. The error bars on the mean radius from POA tend to be REALLY big for most non-BR shooters, whereas shrinking error bars on ammo consistency is relatively pretty easy. When a guy is shooting closed knots at 100yrds and needs at least 200-300yrds to see open groups, the game is very different, statistically, than when a guy is shooting open groups at 30yrds.

 

[Nuke8401]

This works in this application because the consistency of the population determines the sample volume required to achieve a desired confidence interval.

When a rifle is shooting 10rnds into half-MOA, we know a quarter-inch deflection between two variables is a deflection. When a rifle is shooting 10 shots into an inch at 100yrds, we have far less confidence that a quarter, even a half inch difference in group size between two variable sets is actually a meaningful difference. The OP’s 100 vs. 400yrd targets are a perfect example, that result isn’t possible by any other explanation other than mechanical error - which effectively means the 100yrd groups are meaningless. If dude can hang onto 3/8moa groups at 400 time and time again, we know a hell of a lot more about the rifle than we could see on the page with the 100yrd groups.

Simply, as our error grows - as our group size grows - our number of shots required to determine validity of differences in observations between groups also grows.

That’s one reason why the Satterlee method tends to work well for so many folks: not many folks are actually good at shooting 600+ yards, whereas loading to single digit SD’s is pretty simple. The error bars on the mean radius from POA tend to be REALLY big for most non-BR shooters, whereas shrinking error bars on ammo consistency is relatively pretty easy. When a guy is shooting closed knots at 100yrds and needs at least 200-300yrds to see open groups, the game is very different, statistically, than when a guy is shooting open groups at 30yrds.

What you said makes sense. I'm still working on full comprehension though.
I shot a different gun this morning for a break from the 308 while waiting on some needed components.
I was going to ask for opinions/analysis of the two groups below but from what you said they have little value.

Anyway, here's the range report:
Range trip this morning 6/14/23, different gun, 30-06 Stevens, basically stock.
Reduced charge loads of 125g HDY SST and 155g HDY ELDM.
Both loaded with IMR 4895 35gr = light loads. Full 30-06 loads in this gun are not something I, or my neck, want to tolerate. I picked 35gr because it is safely above the 60% X (MAX grains) for both following the reduced load recommendation for 4895.
Each are five shot groups at 100 yds. With no adjustments between groups.
- Interesting how the ELDMs shot to the right?
These are the first handloads I’ve taken data with this gun.
My goal is a light recoil, accurate load for practice at 0 - 400 yards.
- Next step is to increase the charge on both to maybe 2.5gr (37.5).
Benchrest isn't my goal, I just want to maximize accuracy with more common components and techniques.
Thanks,
David

 

[Hugger-4641]

I disagree that three shot groups have little value. If they are consistently repeatable, then that's all the data that matters. By repeatable, I mean at least 3 cold bore groups. If you have repeatable 3 shot groups, 5 or 10 shots is just wasting ammo, especially if this gun is to be used for hunting. Some thin barreled hunting guns start heating up after three or four rds. I have a Howa that does this. It is sub moa for 3 to 4 rds, then it starts opening the group. What I look for when determining powder charge is a repeatable
small group with the least vertical spread as close as possible to the velocity needed for that bullet in that gun. If you're just punching paper, that's one thing, but if this is for hunting, it does no good to have a super accurate 178 eldx bullet going 2000fps and trying to make a 400yd shot. It also does no good to try to get 2800fps from a 178gr bullet in a short barreled. 308, you probably ain't gonna get it with any powder. Use the 30-06 if that's what you're after.

Once I have the charge I want, then I start varying seating depth to close up the group.

As for the targets you posted, it would help to have the shots numbered. If the 3 shots in each pic that are closest together are the first three rds fired, and the others are fliers, that tells a different story than if those 5 shots are in random sequence.

 

[Varminterror]

Benchrest isn't my goal, I just want to maximize accuracy with more common components and techniques.

So keep it simple. If load development for this is more than 50-75 rounds, we’re doing something wrong.