Rash of Burglaries Neighbors ask can we shoot them??

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My local paper had the screaming headline

BURGLARIES HAVE NEIGHBORS ASKING CAN WE SHOOT THEM

http://www.delawareonline.com/1024a.html


Neighbors ask: Can we shoot burglars?
By MICHELE BESSO / The News Journal
02/11/2005NEWARK -- The question was hollered from the back of the room: Can we shoot them?

The answer came from Cpl. Tracy Simpson of the Newark Police Department.

"You can use as much force as you can to defend yourself, but we will not justify homicide or shooting a person," she said. "It's got to be a justified decision that each person has to make."

Residents worried in the wake of a recent string of burglaries and home invasions around Newark peppered police with questions Thursday during two community meetings.

More than 200 mostly elderly town and county residents attended a meeting at the First Presbyterian Church in the afternoon while around 100 more people attended a later meeting at Maclary Elementary School.

At the meetings, residents learned more about a new task force made up of county, state and Newark police. That task force was formed after Newark Mayor Vance Funk III sent a memo to City Manager Carl Luft earlier this week strongly urging Luft to call county and state officials to get more help.

"I told him I was not satisfied with the progress of the burglary investigation and that additional people were needed," Funk said. "There's just not enough bodies."

Luft said Newark police then updated Funk with details about their investigation and told the mayor the resources they were using were enough.

"The mayor seemed to accept that," Funk said.

On Wednesday, county police called Newark Police Chief Gerald Conway and offered to provide help. Newark police officials then called the state to see if they would help.

"It all sort of came together," Luft said. "The whole department is working very hard. It's a frustrating situation."

Although the city of 30,000 has been hit by more than 100 burglaries since October, it's the recent increase in home invasion-type burglaries that has police and residents even more concerned.

There have been five home invasions in Newark since the start of the year while at least three others have been committed either just outside the city limits or just over the state line in Maryland and Pennsylvania.

Jean Hendricks, 63, who lives in a neighborhood near Newark, said there have been some burglaries in her neighborhood. She said she is more nervous since learning of the home invasions.

"If I hear something downstairs, it makes me nervous and I have trouble sleeping," she said. "I'm more aware of my surroundings now and I'm keeping my eyes open. I'm making sure the door is locked and I'm getting an alarm system."

State Police Lt. Tom Ford said residents should immediately start seeing more K-9 units in the city and even helicopters flying overhead. The task force will work out of the Elkton Road police headquarters and use undercover vehicles.

"People's senses are heightened, but it doesn't mean there's a reason to panic," Ford said.

Residents came to the meeting looking for ways to protect themselves and their valuables. One person at the afternoon meeting even asked police if residents should be recording all the serial numbers on their money in case someone breaks in and steals it.

But residents also came looking for more details on the investigation, details police did not want to share.

Simpson started the meeting by telling those in attendance, "We have a lot of details we can't give out without jeopardizing the investigation. If you have questions, we can't answer them."

A thin male under 6-feet tall and wearing dark clothing is about the only description Simpson could give about the burglar.

"I realize this fits 50 percent of the male population," Simpson said, telling the residents they need to be aware of strangers in their neighborhood. "This guy has been seen by someone. He's not invisible."

After the meeting, residents with questions crowded around police.

A key concern for many was what to do if somebody breaks into their house while they are at home. Simpson told them not to confront the person.

"If you are confronted, do not resist," she said. "Comply with whatever he asks. You don't know if someone will hurt you. Nothing you own is worth more than your life."

Simpson also urged residents to lock their doors and windows, install an alarm system, and make sure the outside of their homes are well lighted. "A criminal's worst enemy is light," she said. "These people are giant, oversized cockroaches. You see what light does to them."

Contact Michele Besso at 324-2386 or [email protected].
 
"If you are confronted, do not resist," she said. "Comply with whatever he asks. You don't know if someone will hurt you. Nothing you own is worth more than your life."
Yeah right - how many times do we hear this one!! :rolleyes: The one very thing folks own which is priceless is - surprise - yep, their LIFE, their own life. Worth defending IMO.

"You don't know if someone will hurt you" ..... probably not initially - but why should anyone have to wait and take the first bullet just to be sure? The more these statements are made and heeded, the more likely it'll be that invaders and robbers will be bold enough to carry and use their guns ... thinking they will have little or no opposition.

If they knew that any house they attacked was almost for sure going to respond with armed resistance (potential) they would surely be less keen to even try.

I guess hollow point ammo is out - regardless, for the legitimate armed homeowner anyways! :(
 
I guess hollow point ammo is out - regardless, for the legitimate armed homeowner anyways!
No it's not. You're allowed to keep it at your house, you just can't carry it anywhere unless it's to a range.

Given that NJ is a no-issue state (in reality, anyway) carrying any weapon is forbidden, so the carrying of hollowpoint ammo is irrelevant.
 
I know this is off topic, but I can't help it.

...Mayor Vance Funk III
I wish I had this guys name. If I did I would have gone to med school. "Paging Dr. Funk" , "Code Red for Dr. Funk", "Dr. Funk, report to the nurses station. ;) " (would be a good porno name too.). I just can't get enough of this. :D

Now, to bring this back on topic, I don't know about the laws in NJ, but here in NC there is no Duty to Retreat in your own house. Too bad they can't use effective bullet designs.
 
UMMM Guys, this is Delaware NEWark Pronounced New ark, not NJ pronounced Nerk. :rolleyes:

Hollow point ammo is AOK in Delaware, shotgun slugs, buckshot, hardcast wadcutters, and samaurri swords all AOK. We give folks CCW here which authorizes carry of any deadly weapon concealed, Open Carry is legal in Delaware, though seldom practiced.

The standard for shooting someone is wether you feared bodily harm. Your home is your castle here in DE.

As far as confronting folks goes, the burglar is attacking elderly folks in their homes at night. He breaks a window after they go to bed, he cuts the phone line, and confronts the folks in their bedroom (he apparently watches the house for a while). So the officer's statement about not confronting the burglar is silly since he only attacks while they are home and then seeks out the homeowner to demand valuables. There has been no mention that he carries any weapon, so far, and thankfully no one has been injured yet.

My hope is that he will run into an armed homeowner but no such luck yet.
 
Just like they said, we don't know if they're going to hurt us, and if we do nothing, nothing's going to stop them from hurting us, so why shouldn't they? They being burglars aren't rational anyway, they might get kicks out of hitting me with a bat or kicking me or shooting me.

Is there any kind of ammo we can't use in NC? Uncle bought a crap load of hollow points that he uses to reload, so it's all we have...I don't think I've ever seen a FMJ at his house.
Also what kind of .12 ga shell would be best for use in a home defense shotty? I'm thinking buck shot. =p
 
"If you are confronted, do not resist," she said. "Comply with whatever he asks. You don't know if someone will hurt you. Nothing you own is worth more than your life."

But everything I own is worth more than the life of some POS druggie thug gang-banger.
 
Yes.

Sorry, I'm not the one who has broken into my home, intimidated people, broken the law and willingly placed my life on the line for at best the few hundred dollars in junk that a fence will view the spoils as. The person that has done these things is a criminal and he has foolishly decided to deman, foce, require me to place a value on his life. Why exactly is it I am supposed to value his life greater than that which I have worked for all of MY life? Why is it I am supposed to weigh my own life in the balance of whether the criminal will be happy with only that hypothetical garden hose?

No, sorry again. The victims are not the ones who have forced the situation and the decisions such entails. As such, the life of the thug in question is worth exactly whatever they want it to be.
 
Sigh.....

Taking the life of another human being who is seeking to use deadly force against you is justified legally and morally.

In most jurisdictions, 6aking the life of someone comitting a residenetial burglary is alos justified legally and morally on the common law "castle doctrine" grounds

Equating a human life with a piec e of personal property is disgusting and demeaning and is no better morally than the criminal behavior critisized. Taking a life is not something to be taken lightly, or gloried in....

Nor is it for us, as individuals, to judge someone worthless outside the boundaries of the law. Your scumbag junky is someone elses child, in circustances equating to there but for the grace of god......

Y'all wanna play law and order, fine, but taKE THE hIGH rOAD

wILDSUPERCILIOUSaLASKA
 
obviously WA didnt use deadly force on the crook that stole his "Typing for Dummies" textbook.

:D

would you believe he even knows HTML with his rudimentary hunt-and-peck two-finger typing ability?


but i digress..... reminds me of one of the fellow students in the CHL class i took. lady asked the instructor (actually she TOLD everyone) "anyone comes into my home i'm shooting."
instructor says "but what if its a family member and you wind up killing them because you werent aware of what exactly you were shooting at?"
"oh that would never happen because my family never comes into my home late at night."

or the guy in the class who asked "i got a carport thats not attached to my home. does that count as a lawful shooting if someone is in my carport and i'm in my home?"


i got an idea. lets get biblical on this. did you know the mosaic law justified the killing of a thief in your tent when it was night time? i say lets go back to that principle. in fact, lets also start stoning those who break the mosaic laws.
:scrutiny:
 
*yawn*

Your moral judgements are yours and yours alone. Mine are that I would never presume to judge a victim who takes the life of a criminal intruding in the victim's home. It's not the job of the victim to read the criminal's mind nor plumb what level of thuggery will make the criminal happy. Nor is it the duty of the victim to worry about who spawned that criminal, nor what his motivations might be. It's the right of the victim to make certain he and that which he values(whatever it may be) comes out of the situation intact.

Who initiated the situation? Who is where they should not be? Who has forced the issue? That answer is simple and no, I don't have any sympathy for anyone but the victim and there's only one of those: The homeowner. If the end result is a dead criminal, too bad. He had his entire life to make such decisions, which is far better than the few moments his victim has to figure it all out and make the "right" decision.

If anyone has thus cheapened human life it is the criminal, for creating situations where such decisions have to actually be made rather than merely talked about in sterile enviroments like this.

Oh, note, I don't believe anyone is talking about taking potshots at unconfirmed targets so the hypothetical family member, or "shootiung anyone that comes in the house", isn't really relevant, is it?
 
Your moral judgements are yours and yours alone.

My moral judgement is the same as most normal people...a human life, no matter how degraded, is worth more than a piece of property.

Plenty of justifications for taking life. None of them shopuld be based solely on $$$.

WildbuthtenagainiamabitmoremoralthanmostAlaska
 
WildbuthtenagainiamabitmoremoralthanmostAlaska

Interesting statement on several levels, not least of which would be the direct conflict with the contents of your post.

Regardless, I believe it's obvious to most the point is the judgement call. Our hypothetical criminal has a relatively infinite range of time to make his decisions. His victim has moments to define the scenerio and make a proper response.

Personally I DO place more value on that which I have worked for than I do on the life of someone who would steal it. But more importantly, as I said, I am not going to presume to judge someone else in such a situation. When confronted with an armed attacker I really don't care why the victim does what he does, so long as he is the one who survives. The fault and responsibility for the outcome are solely on the shoulders of the criminal.
 
mbs357- There are no restrictions on ammo in NC. When I wrote what I did above I thought that they were refering to Newark NJ. Masterblaster was kind enough to point out the error of my ways. Thanks, Masterblaster :)

I've got to agree with WA on the moral argument. ANY life is worth more than property. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Cal
 
My moral judgement is the same as most normal people...a human life, no matter how degraded, is worth more than a piece of property.

I believe that property is the same thing as life. Let us say that I spend 3 years of my life working hard to pay for a nice car that is worth a lot to me. If some punk steals that car they have effectively stolen 3 years of my life. If 3 years worth of my life is not worth defending then exactly how many years worth of life is?

I believe that a man's home should be his castle. It is his property and no one elses. Whoever decides to step onto that property with bad intentions deserves all manner of hell that they have brought down upon themselves.

We also can't forget who makes the decision for violence. The criminal has decided that violence is needed. The only decision that the homeowner needs to make is which of them will be receiving it.
 
2nd Amendment

+1

I'll even say it's recriprocal--anybody catching me in his house trying to steal their stuff has my permission to shoot me. It's just the way things should be. Morally I'm okay with that.

Luckily I have the sense to never break into someone's house. Those that don't...well, tough noogies. Life is hard, no matter how long or short you choose to make it by your own decisions.
 
Personally I DO place more value on that which I have worked for than I do on the life of someone who would steal it. But more importantly, as I said, I am not going to presume to judge someone else in such a situation. When confronted with an armed attacker I really don't care why the victim does what he does, so long as he is the one who survives. The fault and responsibility for the outcome are solely on the shoulders of the criminal.

I agree with what you're saying, but your first post implied that (say) were a thief to steal a shovel out of your yard and run away down the street, that you feel you'd be morally justified in shooting him in order to get your property back. That part, I disagree with. A criminal threatening my life or breaking into my home will have deadly force used upon them at my discretion, but I will not use deadly force purely for the protection of property when there is no 'reasonable' chance that I would otherwise be killed or severely hurt.
 
If that seemed to be implied in my first post I'm sorry. Wasn't what I intended. What I am talking about is the confrontation itself. If the guy runs away, well, hopefully he can't carry your stuff too far. :) But when forced by an invader to sum up a situation and act in mere moments I am always going to side with the victim. If it turns out he "over reacted" against the criminal well, oh well. It's a helluva position to be put in, ya know.
 
what 42 sums up my attitude on the whole matter: how much of my life's time do you have to take before I can defend it?

And, from that point of view, any amount is too much.

'course I had problems with the draft way back when, and always have that attitude with regard to the IRS! :)
 
P95's the only one I've seen so far who's alluded to the statistic that victims are more likely to be killed or injured if they "just give the criminal what he wants" than if they resist with a firearm. Yes, I read that so far, the guy that the police know about apparently hasn't injured his victims yet. That's irrelevant to the next victim who is faced with this or another home invader.

If we're discussing breaking into houses, then a comparison of the value of a human life and the value of property smells like a red herring to me.

Someone breaks into a house: that's not ordinary behavior. It's extremely threatening behavior.

Don't break into houses. If you do, then the people who live there will be alarmed by it. They might kill you.

How complicated is that?
 
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