NavyLCDR
member
I have a Pietta Navy .44 1851 revolver, brass frame. Can it be loaded with any type of HP or conical bullet? I am guessing anything jacketed is out? I am just getting bored with the standard round balls.
Real bullet in 1851 Navy .44
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gordy
Member
I have a 1851 also and some years ago I found some maxi balls in .44 cal.
They shot great, Kind of a round nose bullet. I only had 100 of them and don't know were to get more.
You could find a mold and make your own.
But to answer your ? yes it is possible as long as the cal. is the same as the size of the bullet. Jacketed? maybe I can't say how that would work
They shot great, Kind of a round nose bullet. I only had 100 of them and don't know were to get more.
You could find a mold and make your own.
But to answer your ? yes it is possible as long as the cal. is the same as the size of the bullet. Jacketed? maybe I can't say how that would work
GeoffC
Member
Lee does make a really nice mold for conicals... That being said, in my personal opinion, and from what I've read, a good .454 or .457 round ball produces superior results in almost all situations.
If you do end up shooting some conicals, please post what you're shooting and how it's going for you.
A table top cyl loading tool(the kind that has a loading lever build onto it, not just a loading stand, but the type you set your cyl on then load it using the tool itself) might really come in handy when trying to load certain types of conical projectiles, I'd imagine that it'd be very easy to make a cylinder loading stand by putting a propperly sized piece of steel rod into the center of a 10 inch section of a 2x10 board. I'd prolly try to keep my steel rod short, so as to where it doesnt protrude over the cyl to far so that it wouldnt get in the way of loading. I'd prolly try an use a ball starter with a propper tip on it if I was loading a pointed bullet so as not to mutilate it to bad. The loading rod on the gun is something i could see just smashing the tip of a bullet to the point where you'd be shooting little more than a standard conical. Good Luck! Geoff
If you do end up shooting some conicals, please post what you're shooting and how it's going for you.
A table top cyl loading tool(the kind that has a loading lever build onto it, not just a loading stand, but the type you set your cyl on then load it using the tool itself) might really come in handy when trying to load certain types of conical projectiles, I'd imagine that it'd be very easy to make a cylinder loading stand by putting a propperly sized piece of steel rod into the center of a 10 inch section of a 2x10 board. I'd prolly try to keep my steel rod short, so as to where it doesnt protrude over the cyl to far so that it wouldnt get in the way of loading. I'd prolly try an use a ball starter with a propper tip on it if I was loading a pointed bullet so as not to mutilate it to bad. The loading rod on the gun is something i could see just smashing the tip of a bullet to the point where you'd be shooting little more than a standard conical. Good Luck! Geoff
gordy
Member
Buffalo bullet company makes a bullet mold that may work.
You would need to size your barrel first to get the right size mold.
Just need to cast your own.
You would need to size your barrel first to get the right size mold.
Just need to cast your own.
GeoffC
Member
A company called Precision Rifle makes a bullet called Dead Center.. They're a ballistic tip, but they're sold in diameters that would work for our guns, mind you they're a little long, but the basis for a good idea is there. They're supplied with a sabot because theyre intended purpose is for rifles, but the base is rebated and I can imagine with the propper loading rod tip, they're load up real nice....
Anyone know of a mold available that would make a shorter version of this? I think this might be something the OP and several others would be interested in.
Anyone know of a mold available that would make a shorter version of this? I think this might be something the OP and several others would be interested in.
BCRider
Member
If you were asking about using lead bullets originally intended for cartridge reloading then I don't think it'll work. The bullets are typically too long to fit under the arch that allows the balls or conicals to fit in under the rammer.
Also you'd still want to shave a bit of lead to obtain a seal. Shearing off the long side skirts of cartridge bullets would require a lot of effort and not be very good in the long term for the ramming arm or pivots.
Also you'd still want to shave a bit of lead to obtain a seal. Shearing off the long side skirts of cartridge bullets would require a lot of effort and not be very good in the long term for the ramming arm or pivots.
Shoot The Moon
Member
I am not an expert, but I believe using jacketed would be a BIG mistake.. generally accepted wisdom is that only pure (soft) lead should be used for muzzleloaders..
GeoffC
Member
Im guessing jacketed is a no no, that being said, if there was a way to sabot it sure, but I really don't see a sabot making the jump from cylinder to forcing cone... Even if it did, whos to say what kinda shape things would be in...
Pure lead bullets intended for cartridges are ok though if theyre short enough......
Pure lead bullets intended for cartridges are ok though if theyre short enough......
Zombiphobia
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Buffalo Bullet Co. used to make some really good .451 concials, but as far as I know they no longer do and I don't know of a company who does.
BUT, you can buy a lead melting pot, a ladle and a mold and make them yourself!!
BUT, you can buy a lead melting pot, a ladle and a mold and make them yourself!!
GeoffC
Member
they still make um...
I doubt there is enough room under the rammer to get a conical under it to ram home. They are limited to round balls only (I'm speaking of the '51 Navy design). If you can get a good look at an original 1860 Army you will find there is a lot of metal missing from under the barrel as well as there being a longer cutout. In the repros there is the least room under the Piettas, a little more under the ASMs and slightly more under the Ubertis. I can load a LEE 200gr conical in my ASM Hartford 1860 and in a Uberti but not the Pietta. All of my Remington 44s (Uberti & Euroarms) will take the LEE CB as well as an old (no longer made) 44 cal R.E.A.L. bullet.
junkman_01
member
If you use a cylinder loader, and load the cylinder off the gun, then you can load just about anything that will fit in the cylinder.
NavyLCDR
member
Thanks for the loading consideration Hellgate and junkman. I think I will stick with round balls in the Navy and move up to a bigger gun if I really want to shoot bullets!
Regarding "Real" bullets, the '51 might be a little tight to get under the loading ram, but a '60 or Dragoon, no problem.
I just received 600 bullets from Dash Caliber. I'll be using these for loading 44 Russian, 44 Special/Mag, 45 Colt and all of my 44 front stuffers.
I have not had time to load any yet as they just came in on Saturday and I still have to work. I will say, the owner of the company is great to deal with and will answer any and all questions. He uses these in CB and cartridges. You can order them lubed for smokeless or Black Powder.
He did warn me that he's a few weeks out on production, so be prepared to wait a bit for your order.
Here's a couple of links to find the bullets.
Big Lube 44's/45's & El Paso Pete's (EPP) 150 Ultra Gamer, I'll be using these for Cap & Ball Revolvers.
Like I said, I haven't shot any yet, but I've got high hopes.
I just received 600 bullets from Dash Caliber. I'll be using these for loading 44 Russian, 44 Special/Mag, 45 Colt and all of my 44 front stuffers.
I have not had time to load any yet as they just came in on Saturday and I still have to work. I will say, the owner of the company is great to deal with and will answer any and all questions. He uses these in CB and cartridges. You can order them lubed for smokeless or Black Powder.
He did warn me that he's a few weeks out on production, so be prepared to wait a bit for your order.
Here's a couple of links to find the bullets.
Big Lube 44's/45's & El Paso Pete's (EPP) 150 Ultra Gamer, I'll be using these for Cap & Ball Revolvers.
Like I said, I haven't shot any yet, but I've got high hopes.
Gatofeo
Member
Proper seating of a conical bullet in a cap and ball revolver chamber requires a heeled bullet. That is, a bullet with a slightly reduced diameter base for a short distance up from the base, to start the bullet.
Years ago I played around with the Lyman 37583 bullet, a conical bullet of about 145 grains. This is designed like a standard bullet, with no heel to start in the chamber.
Accuracy was poor because I struggled to get the bullet started straight in the chamber.
The old, original conical bullets designed for cap and ball revolvers had this heel, to aid seating in the chamber. Without it, you struggle to keep the bullet from tipping while being seated. It's simply too much of a pain in the patoot to use a bullet without a heel.
Frankly, I've yet to find a conical bullet as accurate as a proper diameter ball. In the .36s this means .380 inch instead of .3755 inch. In my .44s I use .454 and .457 inch balls, instead of the recommended .451 inch.
Accuracy is better, and the ball clings better to the chamber, staying put during recoil and not shifting forward.
Some years ago, I read an article of a man who used both a Ruger Old Army and a Colt Dragoon reproduction with jacketed bullets seated over black powder. In order to do so, he had to ream the chambers of both revolvers to .450 inch, and use .451 inch bullets. Then, he built a powerful bullet seater that forced the jacketed bullet into the chambers.
The rammer under the barrel was probably incapable of doing so, because it required quite a bit of force to push the copper jacketed bullet into each chamber. You are, in effect, swaging the bullet diameter down to the diameter of the chamber: easy with soft lead, not so easy with a copper jacketed bullet.
Accuracy was no better than a lead bullet. He also noted that ramming the bullet into the chamber often resulted in the opening of hollow point bullets being swaged shut, so it wouldn't function.
He concluded it was an interesting experiment but not worth all the trouble.
And, because he was forced to ream out the chambers of his revolvers, he had to use much larger lead balls from then on.
Every once in a while I read in message boards where someone asks about using non-standard bullets in cap and ball revolvers. Forget it, they're more trouble than they're worth.
I have that article somewhere in one of my Handloader's Digest books, but it's late and I'm too tired to dig. I referred to this article about two years ago in a message board, when I had it before me for reference. A search may find my earlier post on this subject.
Lee makes a mould for an excellent conical bullet, but I'm uncertain if anyone actually offers the bullet. I cast my own, from dead-soft lead.
The Lee design has a heel on the bullet to help start it straight in the chamber, and its bullet bands are progressively larger from rear to front. The rearmost band is not much larger than the chamber, also helping with alignment. The forward band is full-sized, to ensure a good seal in the chamber.
The Lee is the only conical bullet I've found that can rival, and sometimes slightly exceed, the accuracy of a ball.
For most uses, however, the ball is ample. It's accurate, will punch a clean hole in cans and paper targets, and will take small game well if placed in a kill zone. It's also easier to load.
Old, original conical bullet designs, such as those once offered by Colt, Remington, Starr and others, are available as bullets from Dixie Gun Works. I've played with these too, but accuracy is lacking compared to the ball.
But order a variety if you like, and play with them. I did some years ago, and concluded that the ball was still best.
Years ago I played around with the Lyman 37583 bullet, a conical bullet of about 145 grains. This is designed like a standard bullet, with no heel to start in the chamber.
Accuracy was poor because I struggled to get the bullet started straight in the chamber.
The old, original conical bullets designed for cap and ball revolvers had this heel, to aid seating in the chamber. Without it, you struggle to keep the bullet from tipping while being seated. It's simply too much of a pain in the patoot to use a bullet without a heel.
Frankly, I've yet to find a conical bullet as accurate as a proper diameter ball. In the .36s this means .380 inch instead of .3755 inch. In my .44s I use .454 and .457 inch balls, instead of the recommended .451 inch.
Accuracy is better, and the ball clings better to the chamber, staying put during recoil and not shifting forward.
Some years ago, I read an article of a man who used both a Ruger Old Army and a Colt Dragoon reproduction with jacketed bullets seated over black powder. In order to do so, he had to ream the chambers of both revolvers to .450 inch, and use .451 inch bullets. Then, he built a powerful bullet seater that forced the jacketed bullet into the chambers.
The rammer under the barrel was probably incapable of doing so, because it required quite a bit of force to push the copper jacketed bullet into each chamber. You are, in effect, swaging the bullet diameter down to the diameter of the chamber: easy with soft lead, not so easy with a copper jacketed bullet.
Accuracy was no better than a lead bullet. He also noted that ramming the bullet into the chamber often resulted in the opening of hollow point bullets being swaged shut, so it wouldn't function.
He concluded it was an interesting experiment but not worth all the trouble.
And, because he was forced to ream out the chambers of his revolvers, he had to use much larger lead balls from then on.
Every once in a while I read in message boards where someone asks about using non-standard bullets in cap and ball revolvers. Forget it, they're more trouble than they're worth.
I have that article somewhere in one of my Handloader's Digest books, but it's late and I'm too tired to dig. I referred to this article about two years ago in a message board, when I had it before me for reference. A search may find my earlier post on this subject.
Lee makes a mould for an excellent conical bullet, but I'm uncertain if anyone actually offers the bullet. I cast my own, from dead-soft lead.
The Lee design has a heel on the bullet to help start it straight in the chamber, and its bullet bands are progressively larger from rear to front. The rearmost band is not much larger than the chamber, also helping with alignment. The forward band is full-sized, to ensure a good seal in the chamber.
The Lee is the only conical bullet I've found that can rival, and sometimes slightly exceed, the accuracy of a ball.
For most uses, however, the ball is ample. It's accurate, will punch a clean hole in cans and paper targets, and will take small game well if placed in a kill zone. It's also easier to load.
Old, original conical bullet designs, such as those once offered by Colt, Remington, Starr and others, are available as bullets from Dixie Gun Works. I've played with these too, but accuracy is lacking compared to the ball.
But order a variety if you like, and play with them. I did some years ago, and concluded that the ball was still best.
Curator
Member
Last but not least---conical bullets will speed up the eventual shooting loose of the cylinder pin in your brass framed revolver. Heavy bullets and loads put too much strain on the cylinder arbor threads in the frame. Stick to light loads with round balls and you can get many years of shooting. Otherwise be prepared to retire your gun to wall hanger status pretty soon.
NavyLCDR
member
Thanks everyone! I am going to get a new gun before new bullets...
BCRider
Member
I had thought about the idea of using a regular bullet and making a swageing die and ram to allow reforming them to something that would fit my C&B guns. But I quickly realized that I'd the need for the heel as gatofeo described above. That makes this project more involved that I'm willing to persue at this point.
ofitg
Member
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NavyLT, those .44 round balls were pretty effective, against humans at least.
Got an old Handguns magazine, Feb '98, with an article written by Ed Sanow. He chronographed the round ball from an 1860 Colt at 935 fps - penetrated 19.8 inches of gelatin, recovered diameter 0.48 inches, stretch cavity 38.8 cubic inches.
Those numbers are comparable to some 9mm and .357 hollowpoints.
When he tried .44 conicals, he got lower muzzle velocities and deeper penetration... in his words, "the round ball turned this energy into tissue damage and massive disruption. The conical bullets turned the same energy into extremely deep penetration."
Got an old Handguns magazine, Feb '98, with an article written by Ed Sanow. He chronographed the round ball from an 1860 Colt at 935 fps - penetrated 19.8 inches of gelatin, recovered diameter 0.48 inches, stretch cavity 38.8 cubic inches.
Those numbers are comparable to some 9mm and .357 hollowpoints.
When he tried .44 conicals, he got lower muzzle velocities and deeper penetration... in his words, "the round ball turned this energy into tissue damage and massive disruption. The conical bullets turned the same energy into extremely deep penetration."
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