Real Life Shooting Scenarios III

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Our friend Bernard lives in New York City and has been the victim of a mugging in the past. Not wanting to be a victim again, Bernard illegally procures a 5-shot .38 snubby from the streets of NYC and begins carrying it in his pocket.

One day while riding the train, Bernard is accosted by four young men. Unknown to Bernard, these young men have a history of robbery, burglary and assault but are dressing and acting in a manner consistent with their past.

As Bernard is sitting in his seat, he is approached by the four men. Three of them gather round Bernard while the fourth hangs back behind them. One of the young men says "Hey, can I have $5?".

Bernard responds by drawing his revolver and shooting the youth. He then proceeds to shoot the other two men facing him as well. The fourth youth by this time has grabbed a passenger strap hanging from the ceiling and is doing his best imitation of "I am not with those guys and have never seen them before". Bernard shoots him as well.

Looking around at the carnage, Bernard notices one of the young men still moving and states "What? You are still alive? I guess you need some more then." and shoots him again. At this point Bernard is empty and flees the scene on foot as soon as the train stops.

1. Tactics?
2. legal outcome?
 
Awe yes, the "Subway Vigilante", Bernard Getz. Shouldn't have shot that last round and probably shouldn't have shot the strap hanger, but those first three shots could have had better placement.

What was he convicted of, illegal possession?
 
Actually I believe the victim (Bernard) was attacked with sharpened screwdrivers and fired in self defense.
 
He didn't follow the law.
But he should never have come forward.
Crime went waaaay down for a long while after that.


G
 
The police looked for Bernard. They looked very hard. They couldn't find him. Bernard turned himself in. He gave a rambling, hour-long, video-taped statement in which he described vividly how much fun it was to shoot the thugs on the train. The authorities gave him a hard time, but if he was convicted of anything, it wasn't much. Then, one of the guys sued Bernard for $50,000,000. Bernard's video-taped statement was played in the courtroom. Bernard doesn't have $50,000,000, but if he did, he'd have to pay it to the guy in the wheelchair.
 
Two of the youths had screwdrivers (unsharpened) in their pocket. Goetz was convicted of illegal possession of a firearm but managed to beat the murder/manslaughter charges on appeal.

During his confession, Goetz made a number of admissions similar to what Lightning Joe described, including the fact that he would have kept shooting them if he had more ammo. Public statements Goetz made included, "The only way we're going to clean up this street is to get rid of the <ethnic slur for hispanics> and <ethnic slur for blacks>." and "I was trying to get as many of them as I could". As noted, Goetz escaped criminal charges but one of the youths (Cabey, who was paralyzed) won a $43 million civil suit against him. Goetz declared bankruptcy to avoid the judgement; but the bankruptcy court ordered Goetz to pay out 10% of his earnings for 20 years.

All of the youths (except Cabey who remains paralyzed in a wheelchair) have gone on to commit serious crimes. James Ramseur (whose own mother said she wasn't sorry for what Goetz did) was convicted of raping, robbing and beating a pregnant 19yr old girl.

Further details may be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Hugo_Goetz#Civil_trial

Here is a court record of the facts:

On Saturday afternoon, December 22, 1984, Troy Canty, Darryl Cabey, James Ramseur, and Barry Allen boarded an IRT express subway train in The Bronx and headed south toward lower Manhattan. The four youths rode together in the rear portion of the seventh car of the train. Two of the four, Ramseur and Cabey, had screwdrivers inside their coats, which they said were to be used to break into the coin boxes of video machines.
Defendant Bernhard Goetz boarded this subway train at 14th Street in Manhattan and sat down on a bench towards the rear section of the same car occupied by the four youths. Goetz was carrying an unlicensed .38 caliber pistol loaded with five rounds of ammunition in a waistband holster. The train left the 14th Street station and headed towards Chambers Street.
It appears from the evidence before the Grand Jury that Canty approached Goetz, possibly with Allen beside him, and stated "give me five dollars". Neither Canty nor any of the other youths displayed a weapon. Goetz responded by standing up, pulling out his handgun and firing four shots in rapid succession. The first shot hit Canty in the chest; the second struck Allen in the back; the third went through Ramseur's arm and into his left side; the fourth was fired at Cabey, who apparently was then standing in the corner of the car, but missed, deflecting instead off of a wall of the conductor's cab. After Goetz briefly surveyed the scene around him, he fired another shot at Cabey, who then was sitting on the end bench of the car. The bullet entered the rear of Cabey's side and severed his spinal cord.
All but two of the other passengers fled the car when, or immediately after, the shots were fired. The conductor, who had been in the next car, heard the shots and instructed the motorman to radio for emergency assistance. The conductor then went into the car where the shooting occurred and saw Goetz sitting on a bench, the injured youths lying on the floor or slumped against a seat, and two women who had apparently *101 taken cover, also lying on the floor. Goetz told the conductor that the four youths had tried to rob him.
While the conductor was aiding the youths, Goetz headed towards the front of the car. The train had stopped just before the Chambers Street station and Goetz went between two of the cars, jumped onto the tracks and fled. Police and ambulance crews arrived at the scene shortly thereafter. Ramseur and Canty, initially listed in critical condition, have fully recovered. Cabey remains paralyzed, and has suffered some degree of brain damage.
On December 31, 1984, Goetz surrendered to police in Concord, New Hampshire, identifying himself as the gunman being sought for the subway shootings in New York nine days earlier. Later that day, after receiving Miranda warnings, he made two lengthy statements, both of which were tape recorded with his permission. In the statements, which are substantially similar, Goetz admitted that he had been illegally carrying a handgun in New York City for three years. He stated that he had first purchased a gun in 1981 after he had been injured in a mugging. Goetz also revealed that twice between 1981 and 1984 he had successfully warded off assailants simply by displaying the pistol.
According to Goetz's statement, the first contact he had with the four youths came when Canty, sitting or lying on the bench across from him, asked "how are you," to which he replied "fine". Shortly thereafter, Canty, followed by one of the other youths, walked over to the defendant and stood to his left, while the other two youths remained to his right, in the corner of the subway car. Canty then said "give me five dollars". Goetz stated that he knew from the smile on Canty's face that they wanted to "play with me". Although he was certain that none of the youths had a gun, he had a fear, based on prior experiences, of being "maimed".
Goetz then established "a pattern of fire," deciding specifically to fire from left to right. His stated intention at that point was to "murder [the four youths], to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible". When Canty again requested money, Goetz stood up, drew his weapon, and began firing, aiming for the center of the body of each of the four. Goetz recalled that the first two he shot "tried to run through the crowd [but] they had nowhere to run". Goetz then turned to his right to "go after the other two". One of these two "tried to run through the wall of the train, but * * * he had *102 nowhere to go". The other youth (Cabey) "tried pretending that he wasn't with [the others]" by standing still, holding on to one of the subway hand straps, and not looking at Goetz. Goetz nonetheless fired his fourth shot at him. He then ran back to the first two youths to make sure they had been "taken care of". Seeing that they had both been shot, he spun back to check on the latter two. Goetz noticed that the youth who had been standing still was now sitting on a bench and seemed unhurt. As Goetz told the police, "I said ' [y]ou seem to be all right, here's another' ", and he then fired the shot which severed Cabey's spinal cord. Goetz added that "if I was a little more under self-control * * * I would have put the barrel against his forehead and fired." He also admitted that "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again."
 
tactics _after_ the retreat? Well, stay low. People fear the unknown so a unknown vigilante scares the hoodlums more.

Before considering the civil suit, my eval of the last shot was, "not necessary for self preservation if the youth surrenders, but wise for pro-active defense. No telling what group of gangsters would avenge their downed members."

After seeing the civil suit, my eval was: "a wise man kills all witnesses, the old shoot-shovel-shutup routine." This points to a _serious_ problem in NYC. Four or even three on one should satisfy the requirement for self defense: fear of serious bodily harm or death. No court should ever require compliance. Only self-determination can decide if compliance is wiser to avoid death/injuries.

Of course, the wise thing is to get out of NYC with one's dignity intact. the hardest thing is to try hard to forgive the teens by seeing things from different perspectives _without_ caving in to their deprave ways. This takes serious wisdom.


edited:
after reading the transcript, i now conclude the mistake was in making the statement. Bernard is suffering from his negative emotions. His anger would not dissipate. so much so that he had to come forward in an attempt to justify his actions.

He should know better. No death is ever justified. That's why each self-defense shooter must live with the blood-on-hand forever. The trick is to never get into a me-or-him situation.
 
I would say he went to far. The youths would have left after he showed the gun. And after reading the statements, Goetz is a bigot and not a mentally stable person.

He is no better than those punks. Although I still admire his defiance in getting a gun and shoving it to the government.
 
LightningJoe said:
The police looked for Bernard. They looked very hard. They couldn't find him. Bernard turned himself in. He gave a rambling, hour-long, video-taped statement in which he described vividly how much fun it was to shoot the thugs on the train. The authorities gave him a hard time, but if he was convicted of anything, it wasn't much. Then, one of the guys sued Bernard for $50,000,000. Bernard's video-taped statement was played in the courtroom. Bernard doesn't have $50,000,000, but if he did, he'd have to pay it to the guy in the wheelchair.


What a maroon. So what you're saying is, he could've gone scot-free if he had just shut his damn mouth and kept it that way.

As in the famous Monty Python "lupin" sketch: "There! Let that be a lesson to you all!"

P.S. I think that his "victim" gets some portion of everything he'll make in this life, and the next 75,000 lives.


-flier
 
I've often thought about this

What if I had been Goetz? Without a gun, my own option would be the 3" knife hidden in my waistband.

If I pull it, I have to knife them all really fast or I'm going to get the **** kicked out of me. If I don't pull it, I am fairly certain that I'm going to get lightly ****-kicked, and robbed naked.

If I knife them all quickly, I might get put on trial for murder (unjustified and/or excessive force). I might also get it taken away from me and used on me instead.

What does one do in these situations? I don't know. But I am certain that had I a gun like him, I would have jumped back two seats, pulled my piece, pointed it in a relatively safe direction, and warned them out loud for everyone to hear - "don't f*** with me." at which point if they advanced I'd shoot to kill, one round per target after the first which gets 2. with my p228, I'd still have at least 5 shots left to correct any misses. would i shoot all four? don't know - maybe. depends. then i'd run like hell if my gun was illegal. a later statement could be made through an attorney that i'm still terrfied, night terrrors, etc, whether true or not. after that it's a moral judgement call.

But as it stands today - I'm not going have that option, only start knifing or get whipped. I prefer the third option though - never get on busses, subways, etc - leave as soon as the going looks bad - and just generally look like such a poor target / bad mother****** that they'll pick on someone else.

god protect the someone elses in this world. I wish I could.
 
correct me if I'm wrong

but the youth did not produce any weapons, and he used deadly force against non-deadly force, wouldn't that equate to murder?

does 3+ people mean deadly force?

If I was in his situation, I'd probably do it in a tactical way.
I'd say "Ok, hang on, lemme pull my wallet out"

Then pretend you're having hard time pulling it out of your back pocket, stand up and swiftly break right through them, while drawing a gun at the same time and yelling "step the ???? back".. hold them at gunpoint until the next stop and get off.

Also it depends how big they were... if they were bigger than me (I'm 6'2, 200lbs), I'd probably just open fire, if they were weaker than me, I'd use the tactical steps above.
 
silverlance said:
I prefer the third option though - never get on busses, subways, etc - leave as soon as the going looks bad - and just generally look like such a poor target / bad mother****** that they'll pick on someone else.

god protect the someone elses in this world. I wish I could.

Negative.

If you look like you can kill anyone with your bare hands, they will think twice about even approaching you.

Tips - stand up straight, shoulders back, chest forwards, stomach in, head high, but not too high. Look on your face should be "I will kill you if you touch me", calm, concentrated, full of willpower and determination.

A lot of people say break eye contact first. Do not take my word for this, but I never break the eye contact first if I sense hostile situation. Breaking eye contact first - submission. Do not MAKE eye contact in the first place, do not look down or away, rather look THROUGH them... as if you don't give 2 ????s they are there. If you are approached, look STRAIGHT into the eyes and NO NOT break the eye contact. Show the willingness to kill with bare hands.

I've avoided many shaky situations just projecting this image. It might not work 100% of the time, but it sure does project the right set of attitudes you need to avoid being mugged. Mugger pick on weakest people they can find, not the strongest. No one wants to get hurt.

p.s. ok my bad you said poor TARGET, not poor as appearing poor and having no or limited amount of money :)
 
Too bad Bernie didn't have a Hipower or Glock. My reccollection of this was that after Getz turned himself in there was such a public outcry in favor of his actions was so loud it took a year or so before the authorities charged him. This was a time when subway crime was rampant in NYC, and folks were just sick and tired of it.
 
I heard crime in the city dropped dramatically until he was caught and then it went back up :evil:
 
After him, the cops stopped trying to arrest the shooters and made only token efforts to encourage people to turn themselves in. The next few years saw a whole bunch of subway shootings in which a generic black guy would come out of nowhere and shoot muggers before running off. No one turned themselves in or was arrested. One black guy who had a business related carry permit shot a black kid in self defense shortly afterwards and wasnt charged.

The Goetz prosecution was entirely political and 99 percent of the people in NYC (including cops) thought it was BS. He was only found guilty of the gun charge, not the murder charge.
 
Hockeydude said:
I would say he went to far. The youths would have left after he showed the gun. And after reading the statements, Goetz is a bigot and not a mentally stable person.

He is no better than those punks. Although I still admire his defiance in getting a gun and shoving it to the government.

Does not the word Bigot fit most all of us ?
It doesn't mean we are going to do violence. How tolerant are we of anti gunners and others? But we don't go shooting them.
" One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."


I just wanted to say I don't think that Bigot is a four letter word.


Yes, Goetz was not mentally stable person.
 
ka50 said:
correct me if I'm wrong

but the youth did not produce any weapons, and he used deadly force against non-deadly force, wouldn't that equate to murder?

does 3+ people mean deadly force?

Goetz was apparently able to convince the jury that the multiple potential attackers represented a threat of serious bodily harm or injury. This is going to be a key factor in any self-defense case. You have to establish that you had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury before lethal force can be used in self-defense in most jurisdictions.

It is worth remembering that at the time, this was an incredibly well-publicized shooting and that NYC was seeing a lot of crime problems, so Goetz had a lot of public sympathy that your average self-defense shooter might not see in his case. Facts are always very important to a self-defense case. If the people Goetz shot did not have lengthy criminal records and there had not been a large outpouring of sympathy for Goetz, the case could have gone a lot differently.
 
court TV

I saw the testimony Goetz gave on the stand at the civil trial, it was hilarious, he apparently has watched a lot of Eastwood movies and loves the one liners! but I think Bernie was is own worst enemy making the statements he did.
 
I got no problem with someone killing thugs.

Racist idiot or not, I'd still probably buy him a beer.
 
Hockeydude said:
I would say he went to far. The youths would have left after he showed the gun. And after reading the statements, Goetz is a bigot and not a mentally stable person.

He is no better than those punks. Although I still admire his defiance in getting a gun and shoving it to the government.

Actually, he's not. A bigot at least. Mentally unstable? Certainly. The cops and the media portrayed him as a mad dog, and he began to believe it. The statements he made were created in his mind as a result of that belief; these were the things a mad dog would say, so he claimed to have said them. They didn't represent what happened at the time, as shown by the physical evidence.

Goetz would have gotten off cleanly if his attorney (accustomed to representing those with considerable records [i.e. mob]) had used the necessity defense for carrying the weapon. Instead, he ignored that charge, which was the sole one convicted.
 
By the way, note that this is one of those cases where a revolver's limited capacity really came into play. If Bernie had been packing a pistol he wouldn't have been sued and a 19 year old girl wouldn't have been raped.
 
The best witness for the defense was...

...James Ramseur. I saw an interview with him and he was a positively frighteining character. At one point, it appeared that he was going to rip apart the reporter who was interviewing him, but then realized the camera was on and calmed down. Barry Slotnick, Goetz' lawyer, cross examined him and got him to lose his temper in front of the jury. At that point, the jury knew exactly what Goetz faced on the subway train.

It's also interresting to note that none of the witnesses heard him say that line about not thinking the one guy was hurt too bad and a time line put together from witness testimony didn't leave time for him to say it. It may be something he thought but believes he actually said.

His indictment was handed down by the third grand jury. They kept bring in new evidence until the jury charged him. It's interresting that there is no mention of the sharpened screw drivers in the record presented above. Perhaps, that's one of the things the prosecutors left out in order to get the true-bill.

The police had an artist's sketch of Goetz and his landlord had recognized him from that pic, so it can be expected that he would have eventually been caught.

As far as what else could have been done? The only thing Goetz had going for him was surprize. This was NYC so who would expect their victim to have a gun? So when he pulled it, he had a few moments to act. Had they gone into the attack with the idea that if the victim pulled a gun, they would all jump on him at once, Goetz would be just another sad victim of NYC violence and the perps would be just some black guys who no one knows.

As far as him being a bigot (or racist, if you prefer), it must be remembered that he had taken a beating at the hands of a black man in the past. While rational thinking tells us that this shouldn't be projected onto black people in general, impartial rational thinking may not be paramount in one's mind after taking such a beating.
 
Hockeydude said:
... He is no better than those punks. ...

[WEEKLY RANT ON] He is sitting there minding his own business and those punks try to rob him. He is no better than they are? Those punks had criminal history. He is no better than they are? Those punks went on to commit other crimes (including rape) and He is no better than they are?

What are you thinking?

Yes he commited a crime, but he wouldn't have (at that time) had they not been trying to perpatrate one on him.

You are confusing Lawful/unlawful with right/wrong

[/WEEKLY RANT OFF]
 
Goetz noticed that the youth who had been standing still was now sitting on a bench and seemed unhurt. As Goetz told the police, "I said ' [y]ou seem to be all right, here's another' ", and he then fired the shot which severed Cabey's spinal cord. Goetz added that "if I was a little more under self-control * * * I would have put the barrel against his forehead and fired." He also admitted that "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again."

What a model citizen.

Note, I am not against self defense, thats why I read these forums. But the matter in which he presented himself is innaporpriate and the situation could have been defused.

All he had to do was pull out his gun and say "If you make a move against me, I will have to use deadly force." Instead he started shooting wildly.
 
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