Real Life Shooting Scenarios III

[HankB]

Hmmm . . . I'll have to go by memory of the news coverage, but here's my take . . .

1. Tactics? Goetz survived. Unfortunately, so did all four of his attackers. He should have used better ammo or paid more attention to his shot placement.

There were four perps within a step or two of him. If he'd given one of those long-winded verbal warnings some posters above have suggested, he'd most likely now be a forgotten statistic.

2. Legal outcome? If he'd just kept his mouth shut, odds are he'd still be anonymous today . . . or, at the very least, acquitted on ALL charges, including the gun charge. (This last was the only one that "stuck.") And he probably would've won the civil case as well.

The perps he shot admitted they were going to rob him - what wasn't widely reported is that the DA gave them immunity for their crime, provided they testified against Goetz. Getting the "Subway Vigilante" was more important to the DA than prosecuting the real perps.

 

[lbmii]

I often wonder what has come of Goetz. Where he is living, what he is doing, his family situation, what all he went through afterwards and what the long term effects were/are.

He should be interviewed today.

 

[beerslurpy]

Having lived through the late 70s, 80s and most of the 90s in NYC, I can tell you that the ONLY thing that Bernie Goetz did wrong was carry only 6 rounds of ammo.

Every single one of those turds who survived their encounter with him went on to a life of even worse crime. It was a good shoot.

 

[bachman1961]

Shopping for trouble.. ..

I think if that same situation played out today, all his ranting about cleaning up the streets and ethnic targeted degradation would have him behind bars. His demeanor and attitude sounds like it played largely on his actions and pre-meditation. For him, thankfully, the times and crime rates were of significance and folks went along with it by and large. It seems as though he wanted to plant himself in a situation waiting for the moment like a victim baiting the odds and ready for payback. He's probably not much of a fluke. I'd be willing to bet there are numbers of people out there in the bigger cities everyday, ready and waiting. Here in Colorado we had a local incident where a CCW permit holder just happened along too many situations to shoot his gun. Two such instances were at house parties with alcohol being served.

 

[Ryder]

I don't know that using an autoloader would be a better idea. Can't get fingerprints from a fired case? Little matter since he turned himself in.

A "request" for money and/or items coming from a confrontational group is not optional, it's a robbery! Beggars can be persistent and obnoxious but they aren't what I'd call threatening.

I believe he knew he would be put in a position of having to use that gun. Wasn't he mugged twice before he got it? He'd had enough. He put his foot down and took a stand. Yeah, that's a crazy thing to do by today's standards. No wonder so many conformists dislike the guy.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I believe he knew he would be put in a position of having to use that gun. Wasn't he mugged twice before he got it?

Goetz had been mugged three times prior to this incident. In the first he was mugged and beaten severely. The next two incidents he was able to stop by just displaying the gun. In this incident he apparently chose not to give them the option to flee.

 

[kosmo]

All he had to do was pull out his gun and say "If you make a move against me, I will have to use deadly force." Instead he started shooting wildly.

I used to be a bouncer at a night club and I know how fast things can develop. If confronted with proper people, by the time you said "I will", you would have been on the floor and the thugs beating a sh%t out of you.

 

[ka50]

I used to be a bouncer at a night club and I know how fast things can develop. If confronted with proper people, by the time you said "I will", you would have been on the floor and the thugs beating a sh%t out of you.

Word. The rhetoric "if you, then I" will not work.

Swift action is required when no one will be there to come to your rescue (such as subway train or empty parking lot).

Depending on a situation you either spray them with pepper spray and run like hell or if you can't run or outrun them then fight like hell. You cannot let them seize control of the situation, because once they do, you will be at their mercy, which they have none. Do not use logical arguments against multiple attackers, this will get you killed. Do not underestimate the power of stupid people in groups.

 

[Tokugawa]

When the blood is up, the will to kill is there. Some of us are cool calm and collected. Some of us would gladly pick up a battle axe if we run out of ammo. So to critisize Geotz for wishing he could shoot them again is BS. I am quite sure that is a normal human impulse that has been "educated" out of us. In an earlier, less "progressive" (regressive) society, Bernie Geotz would have recieved approbation from the authorities. In this case, he at least recieved it from the masses sick and tired of being bullied by thugs.

 

[LightningJoe]

If nothing else, Goetz demonstrated the utility of the defensive handgun. This lesson may have been lost on NYC, but not on the rest of the country. Those of us who benefit from a shall issue law in a state that did not have such a law in the 1970s may be Goetz's beneficiaries.

 

[Byron Quick]

If you think that everyone out there will back down because you have a weapon then you are sadly mistaken. Hope you never have to test your hypothesis.

I've known a few people who wouldn't back down if you pulled out a Regimental Combat Team. Granted, they are all dead now. But the point is that their opponent pulling a gun had absolutely NO deterrent effect on their actions.

You can think that this or that can be 'defused' if you want. And it might be defused...by talking. And they might be scared off when you point a gun at them. I've done it and had them to leave. I've seen folks attack with gusto when their opponents pulled weapons, too.

There are people out there who are not like you. They are totally serious and understand one thing very well: if you don't stomp their butt then they will stomp yours-no other options available.

 

[ACP]

I never paid much attention to this historical incident before, but upon reading the accounts provided a few things strike me:

1. Bernard Goetz was (is) a racist with an illegally purchased and carried weapon looking to kill black and/or Hispanic people.

2. Goetz did not have the legal right to do what he did, regardless of his previous experience or the future actions of the perpetrators, which could not possibly have been known at the time.

3. Goetz should have done some serious jail time.

4. The perps got the "karma" they deserved, but the legal process doesn't concern itself with what people deserve, but whether a law was broken. Asking for $5 with no display of weapon is not a justifiable use of deadly force.