Recieved my kimber back from the smith

[ajacobs]

I just got my Kimber Custom Classic II back from the gunsmith. It is in Stainless. It came out rather well. I think my next project will be on a series 70 colt. I was a little nervous as I was using a local smith but I got to see some examples of his work first. Everything else I have ever done went to a large name smith. This will be my new carry peice even though I have some much more expensive guns. I had the series II disabled so I sure that will cause some debate among people if it is a sound descision in regards to liablility. Hopefully I will never have to use it and find out. What strikes me about this gun is that I have ended up with almost the outword apearance and practically the same opperation as the original classic. I consider this lightly modified. I ordered the parts myself mostly from brownells as I get their discount and he only charged me $300 bucks for his labor, I had a little over $400 in parts.

Series 2 saftey removed
Full length guide rod removed (and replaced with standard system)
Heinie Standard sights installed (not straight eights)
Dlask Short trigger (fitted so that overtravel stop is not needed and it was removed)
CS internals (hammer, sear, disconect 4 pound trigger)
Ed brown bushing
Ed Brown Memory grove grip saftey
Ed Brown Checkered Mainspring Housing
Ed Brown Sear Spring
Wilson Extractor
Egw Slide Stop (dehorned)
G10 grips contoured and rebeadblasted
Beveled mag well
Ed Brown Tactical Saftey
I also polished the gun then had him rebeadblast finely, this got rid of the factory ruff texture.

The work came out really well and was a bargin if you ask me for 300 bucks, of course I am used to working with some of the bigger names. I must be crazy becuase basicly I have the same gun with new sights, new grips, and no more full legth guide rod. But no series II or MIM parts.

 

[10-Ring]

Sounds like a sweet gun now...have any pics? How does it shoot?

 

[Handy]

Since you spent $700 on a $600 gun, could you comment on how much better the gun is than whatever is offered by Wilson, Clark or Novak for $1300?

 

[Stainless Steel]

"Since you spent $700 on a $600 gun, could
you comment on how much better the gun is
than whatever is offered by Wilson, Clark or
Novak for $1300?"

Handy:
It's like Harley Davidson. Either you get it
or you don't. It can't be explained. Sorry.

ajacobs:
How about some pictures of that bad boy!

Lanyard.

 

[Handy]

No, it's like a custom Harley, and another custom Harley.

I was just asking what was gained by customizing a Kimber rather than a Caspian or any other frame/slide/barrel. It's a serious question.

 

[ajacobs]

Sounds like a sweet gun now...have any pics? How does it shoot?

I will try and post some pics tonight. It is very reliable, It was before the customization that is why I didn't do any feedramp polishing or any other internal work. I haven't really fired it allot yet (I did fire it 500 rounds before getting the work done) but, it is slightly more accurate due to the improved trigger pull (only slight reduction in weight) and fitted bushing.

Since you spent $700 on a $600 gun, could you comment on how much better the gun is than whatever is offered by Wilson, Clark or Novak for $1300

I would be happy to compare although I am certainly no expert, I just know what I like. I have both a Clark Meltdown, My Novak is a High power though, I also have other custom guns from Heinie, Vickers, Loudridge (Cylinder and Slide), and a few others. I think all of these guns fall in a separate category from the limited production guns of places like Wilson, RRA etc. I don't have any that fall in this category although I have seen plenty.

I am kind of opinioned so I like to have guns made to my specs and I have an idea of what I am looking for. Buying a limited production does not give you that option. My "Vision" for this gun was heavy duty, and kind of what the Custom Classic should have been. I wanted to eliminate all MIM parts, use a forged frame, what I consider the best parts. I have more in this as I started with a production gun and replaced parts than it would have cost if the gun was made this way.

While you will not get very much from a big name smith for 1300. At this price point I feel I have a better gun in that I have specifically chosen the parts with what I believe to be the highest quality metal. I think it depends on your goal. I am certainly lacking some aesthetics like checkering. I was trying to come with a list of advantages and disadvantages but I can't think of another 1300 custom gun to compare it to. I guess this gun is more comparable price wise to a higher end kimber or Springfield. I think guns actually have more to offer in features, for example a gold match is certainly going to be more accurate, the TRP from Springfield is going to be more "tactical", they both have checkering etc. I don't think either of them use as high of quality parts though nor were they built with specifically what I wanted (what my vision was). I guess you have to look at what your goal is for the pistol and what you want for features and what you want to spend. I view it this way:

Production guns (milspec custom classic): Great starter guns, basis for a custom project, lots of bang for the buck
High end Production guns (Springfield trp, gold match): Great for people who are not too specific on what the feature are more specific on what they want to do with the pistol.
Limited production (Wilson, baer): Very similar to high end production but usually better quality, people who are not specific on feature more specific on purpose.
True custom guns: People who are specific in what parts they want or features. Can cost allot like my Vicker's or cost a little like this one. OR for people who just want to own a one of a kind piece of art.

I could have never got all the work done for 300 bucks from a big name smith.

I was just asking what was gained by customizing a Kimber rather than a Caspian or any other frame/slide/barrel. It's a serious question

the caspian may have been more expensive.
It is also cast and I wanted a forged frame. I used the Kimber as the slide frame and barrel are really very good. Actually the caspian may have been more expensive.

 

[dude]

wow, lots of details with these custom 1911s but it sounds like fun. After reading all that (and I'm sure there is alot more possible) I realize that it is way easier to be a P7 nut! Although I'm more than happy with just one the way it comes out of the box, the only 'custom' job that is popular is hard chrome and/or buying another one!!

I hope all is well with your new beast and kudos for using a small smith with a good rep.

 

[Sean Smith]

I was just asking what was gained by customizing a Kimber rather than a Caspian or any other frame/slide/barrel. It's a serious question.

Hmm. From what I've seen, a full-on custom build from scratch on a Caspian barstock frame & slide usually sets you back about $3,000 from a good pistolsmith. That's about what the higher-end Wilsons cost you. The trade off there is less waiting for the Wilson vs being able to specify all the work & parts on the pistolsmith custom yourself. More personal input into the final product. Depending on the pistolsmith, the quality of workmanship can be better too... though at this point you can reasonably argue that we are splitting hairs. Lesser-known guys might charge you less and make you wait less, but since their reputation isn't as established you are taking a bigger risk. Expect the pistolsmith to make you wait longer, too.

A basic gun, customized by a pistolsmith fairly extensively, will run you anywhere from $1,000 to $2,000 all-in depending on how much work you are talking about. That's the same price range as your lower-end, off-the-shelf Wilsons and Baers. Performance-wise there isn't alot of difference, though the pistolsmith can give you a slight edge there. Again, arguably splitting hairs. The main reason to go with the pistolsmith customization of a basic gun is to get EXACTLY the features you want on the gun... those off-the-shelf jobs don't give you much (if anything) in the way of factory options, and you are always locked in to that company's brand of parts.

Remember, if you are starting with a $500 gun, by about $500 of modifications you have done 99% of the performance enhancements that exist if you are spending your money wisely; beyond that, you are mostly in the realm of subjective gravy. Don't get mey wrong; I like gravy. But if you spend your money smartly, by $1,000 or so you can be shooting with $3,000 guns.

Personally, I've got very specific wants, and so have no use for an off-the-shelf 1911, no matter how nice it is. If an off-the-shelf Wilson or Baer is exactly what you want, then there really is no reason NOT to get one. On the other hand, going to a $3,000 handbuilt from scratch custom job would be nice, but is a bit of a bridge to far for most people money-wise, and doesn't give you any objective performance edge over a less elaborately worked-over piece.

That said, if you are REALLY heaping on the modifications, it can actually be more cost-effective to start totally from scratch, since at that point you are just throwing away all the parts but the frame & slide anyway (and maybe modifying those to boot).

By way of perspective, I'm waiting on my second customized Delta Elite. Total cost (meaning base gun + parts & labor) will run about $1,700. A different Delta done by Dane Burns ran about $1,800 or so. I could have gotten a Wilson CQB for that money, but it wouldn't have exactly what I want for features, and the customized gun will perform just as well (if not better). And, of course, Wilson doesn't make 10mm guns anyway.

 

[Handy]

Thanks for going into it. I did a little research on my own- I hadn't realized how high the base model custom guns started at. (I will never again accept crap for the cost of a P7) While the top end are in the $3000 range, many start at near $2000!

Les Baer seems to be the exception. They offer forged steel pistols with bells and whistles at around $1350 (Bullseye hardball, Concept 1).

In light of that, your modifications do seem reasonable. One would wonder what Kimber would charge IF they offered a similarly equipped piece.

 

[ajacobs]

I would never give up my p7.

I think kimber could offer something very similar to what I ended up with for $1000 bucks. I basically still have the same pistol just without the MIM parts.

I agree the Baers are one of the bargains in the limited protuduction market.

 

[Sean Smith]

Well, Kimber could charge about $1,000 for a gun with those mods. But a $1,000 Kimber that they actually make wouldn't be as good as your gun... I'm pretty sure even their $1,500 models have MIM parts and plastic mainspring housings. Kimber cuts alot of corners, corners that don't even register on a $600 but seem outrageous on a $1,000 or $1,500 piece.

Even $1,500 Baers or $1,800 Wilsons cut corners in some respects, if you are willing to split hairs finely enough. Baers use obvious knock-offs of Novaks and Bo-Mars instead of the real thing. Wilsons are almost all sandblasted and painted so they don't have to do fine metal prep. To realize economies of scale both of them only allow the use of their parts on their guns, and rigidly limit the variety of their product. Both companies sell over 1,000 guns a year. You can judge for yourself where "pistolsmith custom" ends and "production gun" begins (an ultimately worthless topic that has spawned pages of internet flames over the years). But they are a very nice product.