Recoil Torque

[CTI1USNRET]

I bought my first handgun on my 21st birthday back in 1979, a new Browning Hi-Power with fixed sights. I had it for many years but could never put quick follow-up shots where I wanted them to go. The twisting recoil really wrenched my wrists and made rapid fire worthless. It became a safe queen and I sold it about 5 years ago.

When I was around 24 or 25 yo I got my first Colt 1911A1 and it soon became my favorite. With the very first shot the recoil of the 45 was much less severe with no torque.

I think 9mm rifling is near 1:10, and a 45 ACP's rifling is nearer 1:16.

My brother is in Iraq and I'm holding his firearms for him. Having never tried a Glock I took his Model 17 to the range recently. The problem persists. Not as bad as before (probably because I shoot over 10,000 rounds of 45 ACP every year, and maybe because the Glock's grip is better than the BHP.). But the torque is still noticibly greater with the 9mm.

Anyone else experienced this?

 

[sarhog]

The "torque" is directly proportional to the distance between the chamber and the hand holding the gun.
What I mean is, if your hand is low in relation to the chamber (barrel, etc) the muzzle will "flip" more.
A 1911 allows for a relatively high firing grip, hence the decrease in felt "torque", or muzzle flip.
Good luck.

 

[Mark13]

The G17 probably has less muzzle flip than any other auto handgun(non-vented). Your hand is right up below the slide. The P226st might have less just because it's 40oz or so right?

 

[P95Carry]

Always noticed this - first with my BHP over 20 years ago. Seems more marked with a 9mm - but there are several factors which seem to determine how much is felt. My answer with the BHP was a grip modification but certainly - for me, the torque was as needy of control as muzzle flip.

 

[Island Beretta]

What you are feeling is the faster recoil impulse of a 9mm relative to a .45. For a while I struggled with this too as it caused me to subconsciously push the gun..eventually after enough round count I got used to it...

 

[P95Carry]

Faster recoil impulse is another element - but with BHP it always seemed like the rapidly induced RH spin on bullet - returned that slight LH torque movement. This was most marked on a very small .32 - an early type Browning that was incredibly small - forget exact model.

I don't notice it much now - it was only in early shooting days before grip factors and technique were sorted out.

 

[akviper]

Experiment with your grip and stance. I've carried both the High Power and the Colt .45 for duty and always found I could shoot the high power a little quicker due to the smaller caliber using the same grip.

 

[nemesis]

"Torque" and "muzzle flip" are two completely different things.

To be honest; and I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer; I shoot my .454 Casull and go down the calibers to my Browning Buckmark but I have never, ever recognized any "torque".

 

[P95Carry]

Nemesis - I doubt I am aware of torque in any of my big guns ... but will reiterate that in early days certainly - and with my BHP in particular - torque was indeed a noticeable factor - and well different from muzzle flip.

For some reason, that gun and the 9mm round - gave the impression that as bullet was forced into it's RH spin - there was an opposing rection with gun wanting to twist to left - about its long axis.

I mentioned - for me anyways - attention to grip and technique saw to that being dealt with - I am no longer very aware of it at all. It is tho IMO - a genuine phenomenon.

 

[h_tolley]

The only guns I notice any torque are the higher powered revolvers. By torque I mean a twisting of the gun around the line of the barrel. The higher velocity 454 Casulls will cause significant rotation of the gun. I am not referring to the upwards flip of the muzzle. Just my observations.

 

[model 649]

I, too have never noticed my guns twisting opposite the rifling direction (along the bore-axis), but this brings up an old question I've had: Why are some barrels "left-hand" rifling twist and some "right-hand"? My m1076 is "left", my m29, "right", g17,"right", and several 1911's I've been handling are "left". Just schools of thought or an engineering reason?
Josh

 

[unspellable]

right or left?

There is no significant difference in right or left handed rifling in a handgun. It's at the whim of the designer.

The question only becomes significant in very long range shooting as in artillery. The projectile's spin will cause a slight drift one way or the other depending on whether it's right or left handed. If you have a 16 inch rifle and are shooting at a target twenty miles away this has to be taken into account. There was a theory that one or the other twist should be favoured to counter act the corialis (I'm shure I've mispelled that.) force which will cause a projectile to dirft east or west. It's another little effect that has to be taken into account at twenty mile ranges. I don't put any stock in the theory because you cannot predict whether you will be shooting north or south.

 

[moxie]

As noted by some, torque is not muzzle flip. It is the

rotation, or twist, of the gun about the axis of the bore. It is caused by the bullet hitting the rifling at the forcing cone and beyond. Ii seems to be related to the tightness of the forcing cone related to the size of the bullet, and the degree of twist. Some guns do twist more than others. The twistiest I've got is a .44 Special Bulldog. I've also shot some J frames where the torque was so bad you forgot about other aspects of recoil. Sounds like the starter of this thread found the solution...he found guns that didn't torque much.

 

[Henry Bowman]

There is no significant difference in right or left handed rifling in a handgun. It's at the whim of the designer.

A handgun designer I know recently told me that his experimentation revealed that the more common RH twist was easier to control when fired from the left hand and was considering chaning to LH twist for the standard right hand models. This relates to are natural physical ability to resist supronation (outward twist of our hand or forearm) vs. pronation (inward twist of our hand or forearm).

The effect may be small, but it may as well be working for you instead of against you.

On another related subject, has any handgun manufacturer used a progessive twist (rate of twist increases along the length of the barrel) or is a 4 inch bbl too short to do that?

 

[BigG]

I too notice pronounced torque when firing a Colt Commander in 9mm. Maybe it is the platform as the cartridge does not exhibit the same vicious twist in a Glock, SIG, or Luger. Never shot a BHP to my knowledge, but since the grip angle is similar to a Colt would expect similar torque effect.

 

[P95Carry]

On another related subject, has any handgun manufacturer used a progessive twist (rate of twist increases along the length of the barrel) or is a 4 inch bbl too short to do that?

Henry - IMO 4" would be too short to achieve an effective progressive twist. IIRC tho the new X frame for the .460 is being given a progressive - barrel length there I'd assume is in region of 7 1/2 to 8.

I like the idea in principle.

 

[unspellable]

Progressive twist

Many of the old cap and ball revolvers had progressive twist although the repros do not.

The progressive twist might have been inspired by the round ball having so small an area to grip the rifling and the fact that unlike a single barreled muzzle loader it builds up speed before it hits the rifling.

(Now that I think of it, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the majority of repros seem to be most accurate with something less than a full house load.)

 

[BluesBear]

There is no significant difference in right or left handed rifling in a handgun. It's at the whim of the designer.

Whim? Nowadays that would be termed as a "design feature".

Have you ever wonderd why S&W pinned their barrels and Colt did not?

The direction of the Colt rifling only tightened it into the frame the more it was fired.

S&W pinned their barrels to combat the torque so the barrel wouldn't unscrew from extensive firing.

The Browning designed pistols that have a barrel that turns to disassemble have a rifling twist that torques the barrel INTO the frame.

 

[unspellable]

direction of twist

So why didn't S&W just set the twist in the other direction? Or use left handed threards on the barrel?

I'll have to sit down tonight and look at a S&W and a Colt and see for myself who is which way.

One minor gripe I have always had against S&W and Webley is ther perverse use of an odd number of lands so that it's difficult to determine the groove and land diameters.

 

[mfree]

that odd number of lands also reduces the force required to obturate the lead bullet into the grooves. You only squeeze a given cross section of lead 1 unit of land height versus two for even numbers.

 

[Onmilo]

You say torgue and I call it perceived recoil and yes, the Browning High Power design coupled with faster than 1911 slide cycle speed causes one to perceive a snappier generated recoil force than one might notice when firing a 1911 in .45 acp.

I think if you were to shoot an uncompensated 1911 chambered in caliber 9mm or better yet, caliber .38 Super, you will find the perceived recoil or recoil torgue to be just as snappy as what you encounter with the High Power.
As a matter of fact, if you have large hands you may well find the recoil of the 9mm or .38 Super 1911 to be even snappier than the BHP because the recoil force is expending itself in a smaller surface area of your shooting hand.

 

[BigG]

Torque is a measurement of twisting force so you should get on the page with everybody else. Neither muzzle flip or perceived recoil is torque. Torque is the tendency for the gun to twist along its axis in response to the bullet taking the rifling.

 

[unspellable]

recoil

You have a straight line force in the direction opposite to the travel of the projectile and powder gas. It contributes the major component of the recoil. You have a rotational force or torque opposite the direction spin is imparted to the bullet. It contributes the minor component of recoil, a rotational recoil. Both effects are recoil, and combined are the total recoil.

As a side issue, the straight line recoil force is not in line with the center of mass of the pistol so it imparts a rotation that we call muzzle rise or muzzle flip.

And while we are at it, there is the term "jump" which is that part of the recoil movement which occurs prior to the bullet leaving the muzzle. It's jump that is compensated for by having the front sight higher than the rear. Jump becomes a very big issue when dealing with double rifles and you want both barrels to shoot to the same point.

 

[BluesBear]

Take a 7½ barreled Colt (or clone) Single Action revolver and fire a heavy black powder load using one hand in the old "duelist" manner. You'll definately feel the gun twist in your hand as it rises.

You can feel the same thing with a heavy Garrett 300gr load in a 7.5" or 8.375" revolver when shooting one handed.

The gun doesn't come straight back nor go straight up. It rocks back and twists.

Ask anyone who has shot any heavy loads in a Contender. They'll know about torque.

 

[Sunray]

"...my first handgun.." You have to learn how to shoot a handgun when you're new to it. You can't go from no experience to quick accurate second shots. You need to develope the muscles in your wrist and forearm to be able to control any handgun. Get a rubber ball, cut it in half and squeeze it repeatly to exercise your hand and wrist.
Mind you, I do find that there is more muzzle blast from an BHP, but it isn't torque. It could be that the grip on the BHP just doesn't fit you as well as the grip on your .45. That alone can account for your difficulties with the BHP. Try some different grips.