Recoil ?

[oujeffscar]

Ok, I have been reloading now for about 8 days, so please forgive my ignorance.

I remember from physics class many, many moons ago that every force has an equal and opposite force. So a bullet fired out of a firearm with a certain mass and a certain force, will create a certain amount of froce in the opposite direction it is traveling. Question #1, does cup pressure have anything to do with recoil? If two different powders can be used to make a given bullet leave the barrel with same velocity, will the powder with subtantially more cup pressure create more felt recoil. #2 is the higher cup pressure harder on brass. #3 What should I be considering as far as cup pressure goes.

I am trying to get a handle on why I should choose certain powders over others, intead of just because so and so said it works well for them. It seems obvious to me that fewer grains of powder should be less expensive if the powders cost the same. Clean burning is good. As is the ability to generate an accurate load. Position insensitivity seems important to accuracy. Anything else I should be considering?

 

[gennro]

All this really comes down to weight and speed. The heavier the bullet and the faster it goes the more recoil it will have.

 

[oujeffscar]

Wrong topic title

After reading my post. I realized I should have changed the title to something more appropriate.

Like:

1. Stupid questions time.
2. Beginners questions.
3. Noob w/ questions
4. etc, etc

 

[rcmodel]

Recoil is figured using the mass of the ejecta as one component of the formula.

That includes the bullet weight, and a certain percentage of the powder weight / gas being ejected at a given velocity.

One would figure that a 5.0 grain charge of fast powder would kick slightly less then a 10.0 grain charge of slower powder giving the same pressure.

On the other hand, the fast powder gives the bullet a swift kick in the shorts, while the slower powder gives it a slower shove over a longer duration.

So felt recoil will be a slap with the fast powder, and less of a slap with the slower powder.
But the ft/lbs of recoil will be exactly the same, except for the difference in powder ejecta.

With all that said, here is a recoil calculator.
Notice it doesn't ask the burn rate of the powder used, or the pressure of the load.
Only the bullet weight, firearm weight, velocity, and how much powder is in the load.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

BTW: Nothing stupid about your tread title.
It is perfectly fine to ask questions using the question you want answered as the opener line if you don't know the answers.

To me, thats way better then reading "Stupid Question" over and over again several times a day!!

rc

 

[Eb1]

2400 is sharper out of my .44 Mag than 4227 given the same bullet weight and speed.

 

[kingmt]

RC
Your closer to explaining it then anyone I've seen.

The recoil is 99% exhaust of the gases. Both a heaver bullet & a faster powder will create less recoil.

Higher pressure will work brass more.

I really can't answer the third question without knowing your goals.




321 flame

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

recoil is best described in physics terms with the term "impulse". impulse is the integral of force over a period of time. (ie. if the force is constant, it would just be impulse = force x time) the impulse is equal to the change in momentum. momentum is mass x velocity. so, (we'll neglect the gases going down the barrel for simplicity) if you propel a bullet of the same weight to the same velocity, your shoulder must provide the same impulse. however, how much force you feel at any given moment between ignition and exiting the muzzle depends on how quickly the expanding gases were accelerating the bullet. this gives the difference between the quick snappy recoil of some loads and the slow push of others.

The recoil is 99% exhust of the gases.

do you have a source for this? this would mean that the mass of the gases is 99 times the mass of the bullet.

Both a heaver bullet & a faster bullet will creat less recoil.

i must assume this is a typo. it's widely known that a heavier bullet results in more "felt recoil". not to mention that it's supported by the laws of physics.

 

[rcmodel]

#3 What should I be considering as far as cup pressure goes.

If max performance is your goal?

You should consider only the published max loads in any reloading manual.

Max safe pressure is dependent on what caliber you are talking about, and ranges from 14,000 PSI in some older handgun calibers, to 65,000 PSI in some newer rifle calibers.

BTW: Pressure is measured more & more today using electronic pressure transducers that measure pressure in PSI, or Pounds per Square Inch.

C.U.P. is Copper units Of Pressure, using outdated copper slug crusher guns, and that method of measurement is dead, or at least on life support.

rc

 

[56hawk]

Question #1, does cup pressure have anything to do with recoil? If two different powders can be used to make a given bullet leave the barrel with same velocity, will the powder with subtantially more cup pressure create more felt recoil.

Not really. The higher pressure powder will usually have a smaller charge weight and thereby less recoil.

#2 is the higher cup pressure harder on brass.

Yes, depends on what you are reloading though. It's usually not a concern with handgun ammo unless you are going way overpressure.

#3 What should I be considering as far as cup pressure goes.

SAAMI and CIP have determined what is safe pressures for most rounds. It's usually a good idea to stay within those pressure limits.

Anything else I should be considering?

As far as recoil goes charge weight can have a big effect since the expanding gasses are traveling at much higher velocity than the bullet.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

the expanding gasses are traveling at much higher velocity than the bullet.

they are?

 

[rcmodel]

Yes, they are.

They pass the bullet as soon as it clears the muzzle crown.
And sometimes well before if there isn't a good bullet seal.

rc

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

oic

 

[rcmodel]

To further clarify.

The gas expansion from burning smokeless would like to accelerate up to 5,000 - 6,000 FPS.

Unfortunately, the bore is plugged with a bullet that doesn't, can't, and won't ever go that fast.

Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the high pressure gas is released into the atmospere, and for a brief period of time before pressure drops it does go that fast, before it quickly slows down and disperses as a shock wave and muzzle blast.

rc

 

[kingmt]

Neuservrrat
There was a few typos but mostly spelling. I fixed them & the important part that being I meant faster powder.

My knowledge comes from real world where I see the affects of physics The Laws are Laws & unchanging however there is things going on that you don't understand. I really don't want to type a post that long to list & explain everything. Best explanation would be to look at RC's post & think about the rocket against your shoulder.

Your welcome to come to my bench & I will let you try the recoil. I'll load you a 165gn & a 100gn for my 30-06 & see if you try to tell me the 100gn didn't kick harder with the same powder.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

guess i'll just have to take your word for it. maybe one day i'll understand.

 

[1SOW]

oujeffscar ,
Sir "What" are you shooting, pistol, revolver or rifle? The answers can be tailored to your use.

I am trying to get a handle on why I should choose certain powders over others, intead of just because so and so said it works well for them. It seems obvious to me that fewer grains of powder should be less expensive if the powders cost the same. Clean burning is good. As is the ability to generate an accurate load. Position insensitivity seems important to accuracy. Anything else I should be considering?

For pistol:
"the load range" : Powder "T" data may give 3.9 - 4.4gr for max. "Do not Exceed" load. Not a lot of 'slack' here. A very tight load range from min to max. Especially for a new reloader.
Powder "W" may give 3.7 - 4.8gr for max. A fairly wide load range that gives you more load options-and is forgiving of variations.
"Pressure" A slower powder will give "more" velocity with "Less" pressure. POI may change from from faster powder loads. Generally, slower powders work better for higher velocities and or heavier bullets.
Faster powders give higher pressures, and generally work better for "Slower" velocities, like target/range/competition shooting.

"Recoil" doesn't have that much affect on the pistol shooter. Muzzle FLIP DOES. The pistol is a lever, and the recoil is above your grip. It pushes "straight back" and your grip causes it to "flip" the bbl up. Powder speed and burn rate has a lot of effect on flip. Two different powders loaded to the same bullet speed will give a different amount of 'flip'. The Recoil is essentially the same. Flip is sometimes called "felt recoil". The design of your pistol (bore axis) also affects this a lot.

And MOST IMPORTANTLY: How your choice works for YOUR pistol, YOUR shooting style and for YOUR use.
This is why you will get so many different opinions on what's the best powder and load.
Some will say a slow powder at higher velocities. Others will say Fast powders at slower bullet speeds.
This is reason #1 to start reloading. Tailor the load to YOUR needs.

Ask your loading questions in terms of your gun and shooting needs. Like, light target loads with low recoil for fast follow-on shots" with a 1911. OR Self defense loads to get good results from a 124gr Gold Dot with a 9mm XDM. etc etc.

Give enough info so the answers will be somewhat limited, and then make your decisions.

 

[oujeffscar]

Update to original post

Wow, I appreciate all the responses. But, I am going to need some time to think all this through.

1Sow - Currently I am loading 357 Mag target loads to shoot in both a Ruger Blackhawk Flattop and a Smith & Wesson TRR8 (8 shot N-frame). I am currently loading 148 gr Missouri Bullets DEWCs, because that is what I first ordered. I first ordered and loaded Hornady LHBWC, but after comparing the accuracy, I probably won't be ordering any more. The MB DEWCs were more accurate and less expensive. But I think in the future for light target loads I will try and order something I can shoot in both the pistols and my Winchester 1892.

I have some Hornady 125 Gr xtps, that I want to load to as self defense loads. Doing research on different powders for these loads, is what initially inspired me to ask my original questions.

Now that my kids are mostly grown, I am finally getting to apply myself to my hobbies. I have always done some hunting and shooting, but never could afford (time and money) to do a lot of shooting. Now that the kids are mostly grown, I find myself with a lot more time on my hands and a little more money. So I decided to get into reloading, so I could get the most bang out of my buck so to speak. I enjoy shooting, but have a long way to go before I would be considered a goot pistol shot. I would like to work on my skills and maybe eventually try one of the pistol competitions, 3-gun or Cowboy Action, or maybe I will give them all a try and see if I like one a more than others.

Not sure that I am going about this the best way, but I thought that I should start practicing with light loads and work my way up to hotter loads over time. Plus I thought light lead loads would be the most economical.

 

[popper]

Due to FLIP, slower bullets shoot higher, in the bbl longer. Lighter bullets give you more case capacity for powder, higher fps but watch pressure limits. Faster bullets typically give less bullet drop at a given distance. As for 'felt recoil' learn to live with it or lighten your load.

 

[RustyFN]

Your welcome to come to my bench & I will let you try the recoil. I'll load you a 165gn & a 100gn for my 30-06 & see if you try to tell me the 100gn didn't kick harder with the same powder.

That's also been my experience. For example in 9mm I use a 124 grain bullet instead of 115 grain because it feels less snappy. The 124 grain bullet feels less snappy with a faster powder rather than a slower powder. Now this is felt recoil and not anything that has been measured.

 

[oujeffscar]

I understand that given the same hold on a handgun, the more recoil the more flip. I also understand that the higher your grip the less flip there will be. I also understand the more flip the harder it is to stay on target and get back on target. I also understand bullet trajectory and it's relation to velocity.

What I am trying to learn is all I can about powders and their resultant actions when fired, so can hopefully I can try to come to an intelligent decision when choosing powders.

I really do appreciate everyone's input. It is just that I am not new to hunting and shooting, just new to reloading.

 

[popper]

I understand what you are trying to figure out, not sure you really can without testing. BE, W231, Unique are good powders, fast to slow. You can load a light bullet with low end load of fast powder and really reduce flip. Then there is PF to consider if you want to shoot matches. I don't think the same load will work for rifle and pistol. I note you are shooting cast some, try castboolits.com - a lot of 357 answers there. Ask, select a few suggested powders, buy a pound of each and see how YOU like it.