recommend a 12 ga load for HD in apartment that is NOT buckshot or slug...

[kmrcstintn]

I am seeking recommendations for an apartment HD load in 12 ga that is NOT (GASP!) buckshot or slug...I want to start using my shorter barreled (20") Remington 870 Magnum Express SPS-T for HD in my apartment, but I am weary of using buckshot or slugs due to the thin walls and or ceiling/floor that separates individual units...

I understand that a reduction in penetration potential thru walls also equates to less potent loads and therefore the outcome is a compromise between effectiveness and safety margin...

Thank you.

 

[enfield]

Sorry, you're on your own there.

 

[carebear]

This actually has been hashed over numerous time. You might do a search for home defense or over-penetration in the shotguns forum.

Also, you can do a search at the theboxotruth.com to confirm, but I believe in tests there's really no advantage in non-penetration by going to birdshot.

However counterintuitive that may be.

You are better off concentrating on what will best do the job of stopping the attacker, not what is marginally better in non-penetration.

------edit------
Found the test, not definitive of course, but better than guessing.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Birdshot does penetrate less, but also will not penetrate enough in the badguy to be a reliable stopper.

There may be a happy medium between #6 shot and #4 buck. BB or T maybe?

 

[Al Thompson]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=241384

Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy. I was looking at the "Dead Coyote" loads mentioned while shopping tonight and would have purchased some in 2 3/4 length if they were in stock. YMMV!

http://www.hevishot.com/products_dead_coyote.html

 

[Starter52]

At apartment-house range it hardly matter what size shot you use. I am sure that a load of #7.5 from a AA target shell will get the job done just as well as 4Buck.

A good compromise might be a box of #6 field loads (low brass).

 

[nemoaz]

Been here? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=241384 EDIT: ooops, beaten to the punch.

Even at short range, bird shot (7-9) penetrates an inch or two of flesh and won't penetrate bone BUT STILL PENETRATES DRYWALL. Flesh and clothing is simply more difficult to penetrate than drywall. It's not really counterintuitive. Unless the criminals in your neighborhood are only 2-3 inches thick, leave the quail loads for zombie birdies. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I'm drawn to this like a moth to a light, despite my best efforts.

If I had to have bird load for some reason I cannot now fathom, it would be the largest I could find, it would be the largest I could find (T, BBB, BB etc). Not sure about penetration of lead vs. steel. Steel obviously won't deform but it lighter. I would be inclined to go for the largest LEAD I could find, but that is just a guess. (Just as I used to guess that a birdshot load was good enough for around the house because I had heard people say it.)

I am sure that a load of #7.5 from a AA target shell will get the job done just as well as 4Buck.

7.5 penetrates an couple of inches and 4 buck penetrates 6-9 (depending on who you believe and how you test it). Some say 4 buck doesn't penetrate enough and recommend 1 Buck at least. I feel safe with 6-9 inches of penetration as that should reach the vital organs on anyone. Not sure why so many people use either 12 or 18 inches as the minimum. Perhaps the people are much larger in their neck of the woods.

I'm not aware of anyone WHO HAS ACTUALLY TESTED THE AMMO who thinks 7.5 is acceptable.

 

[RNB65]

There isn't one. Birdshot will cause a nasty flesh wound at close range, but it won't disable a bad guy in time to prevent him from shooting or knifing you. Use either low-recoil buckshot or a handgun for home defense and save the birdshot for the field.

 

[556A2]

#4 Buckshot is a compromise, it really doesn't have the required penetration, but it is better than any birdshot on any day of the week. Just use a tight choke if you are worried about over penetration (and don't forget to pattern your HD Load!!!).

 

[Warren]

Dragon's Breath?








or not....

 

[rustymaggot]

in my opinion, thin walls is the only reason to use birdshot in a shotgun for hd.

problem is, penetration is what potential stopping ability is graded on.

count on the increased possibility of needing additional stots to stop a bad guy, and count on missed shots going thru walls to some degree.

 

[rustymaggot]

added....

let me be clear, birdshot is for birds. if you are willing to compromise your immediate safety then its a fine choice.

i say bad guys make fine barriers to stop over penetration. buckshot thru a badguys chest shouldnt go too much farther.

 

[kudu]

Real world test of live critters, I have dropped fox at 40 yards with #4 birdshot. #2 shot or BB's is what I use on coyotes. It will penetrate 3-5" of doggie flesh and punch through their thin skulls at 50 yards. Yes it may go through apartment walls a bit, but would not likely do serious bodily damage after that. YMMV.

 

[kmrcstintn]

YMMV. <---- what is this???

thanks all...guess I'll stick with me revolvers loaded with .38 +p which is fairly easy for me to control and make accurate followup shots

 

[Kingcreek]

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary.
I agree with Kudu on the effect of larger shot such as #2, BB, etc.
I occaisionally have need to dispatch 4-legged varmints here around the farm and the shotgun is loaded with a couple #2s followed by 00 buck and is grab and go ready for whatever needs dispatching.

 

[Fred Fuller]

If your situation permits, you can establish your own 'firewalls' to contain misses/overpenetration in your established 'fatal funnel' outside your saferoom door. That requires you to surrender the idea of "clearing" your residence in the event of a bump in the night and hunkering down behind cover in your saferoom- a better approach anyway IMHO, as long as you don't have to relocate to secure family members elsewhere in the house.

Effective backstops can be heavy furniture, fully loaded bookshelves, decorative internal brick walls, etc- whatever your imagination can conjure up that can be mistaken for decor and still stop errant projectiles. It may be that your situation does not permit that much rigidity in planning and you may have to seek other alternatives, to include loads other than buck or slugs. I would hesitate to do anything here other than to advise you to carefully consider ALL your alternatives, and to make the best decision you can under the circumstances you have to deal with.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

 

[JShirley]

thanks all...guess I'll stick with me revolvers loaded with .38 +p

I would really suggest buying a box of reduced recoil slugs and testing penetration in water-filled jugs. Extrapolate about 60% less penetration in tissue.

Once you get a rough idea of what it'll do in tissue, you might change your mind about the advisability of using RR slugs. Since a shotgun will let you get back on target faster than your Special, with a payload 4x as powerful, it really should be your first choice if a shooting solution is called for.

John

 

[Roadwild17]

U know in all these threads, I have NEVER heard anyone else say anything about a turkey load. #6 turkey may be the key, I WILL get around to testing this sometime in Feb (test and moving have taken all of my time for the next 2 weeks, no range time for me and the new shotgun ).

 

[kudu]

The thing about turkey loads is not more power, they still run about 1300FPS, just have a bit more shot and recoil to contend with, and they generally have to be tweaked to the gun for optimum performance. They would be a good choice, just like any other premium hunting shell. I have a selection of older goose loads that I use for hunting fox and coyotes, it's hard to find shells anymore loaded with copper plated lead BBs, 2s, and even plated lead 4s. Steel shot just stinks for most hunting situations, let alone home defense. The 'Hevi' loads are fine if you can afford them.

 

[Brian Williams]

#4s or #6s work in my book

 

[556A2]

While I'm not quite sure about .38 Special +Ps specifically, I do know that a 9mm/.40/.45 all penetrate more than #4 buckshot through #1 buckshot in barrier testing.

 

[telomerase]

Bookshelves (with books), strategically located. (I know people that used highway signs, but that's nyekulturny).

 

[nemoaz]

thanks all...guess I'll stick with me revolvers loaded with .38 +p which is fairly easy for me to control and make accurate followup shots

:banghead: Uhhhh, you know that .38 penetrates far more than buckshot or probably more than .223 hollow point, right?????? Not a bad choice nevertheless, especially if you use lightweight hollowpoints, but certainly not less penetration than .24 (4 buck)-.33 caliber (OO buck) round lead shot.

I think you need to open a shell and look at the shot size (to allay your mental reservations) and pattern your SG with buckshot at household distances. It will be a pretty tight pattern. You're not going to unless shot into every room in your apartment. Your pattern should only be a couple of inches at normal apartment distances.

Then try shooting something to give you some ideas of relative penetration. Some meat would be nice, but costly. Maybe the neighbors cat. Just kidding. You could shoot drywall too if it helps, but unless you go to a low end BB gun, anything you shoot will penetrate at least one wall (2 drywalls).

 

[Milkmaster]

Here you go!

http://www.housegun.com/

 

[berettashotgun]

#4 hevishot turkey loads will work just fine, go shoot a car door at 25 feet- it will amaze you. Lot of talk on the internet, but little real world testing.

 

[bpisler]

Add a limbsaver recoil pad and go with any
2 3/4" #4 turkey loads.If your shotguns is
set up for choke tubes go with full or extra
full to keep the pattern tight.