recommend a 12 ga load for HD in apartment that is NOT buckshot or slug...

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Here is some diagrams to show a .38 Special vs. a #4 Buck in penetration testing.

38SplFBIload.gif

vs.

12GaugeNo4Buckshot.gif

Notice the .38 Special over penetrates the #4 Buckshot.

For all of those who are advocating birdshot for defensive use...

This picture is of a pheasant that was shot with #7 shot (1300 FPS) at 12 yards

467269.gif

Notice how only 1 pellet penetrated the breast on a bird, now imagine this on an intruder hopped up on crystal meth.

Once again, crows, turkeys, pheasants, and doves are not people. Do not expect what works on them to work on people.
 
First of all, contact your fire marshall and city building inspector and ask them what type of wall construction passes building code(s) for apartment dwellings. Most require doubling the sheetrock layers between adjoining apartments to slow down fire. You may be looking at four layers of sheetrock, two on your side and two on your neighbor's side.

Just a thought.....
 
Big difference between #4 Buck (.24) and #4 birdshot (.13). You probably know that, but I've met a few avid gun types that do not.
 
This picture is of a pheasant that was shot with #7 shot (1300 FPS) at 12 yards
Notice how only 1 pellet penetrated the breast on a bird, now imagine this on an intruder hopped up on crystal meth.
Click to expand...
I usually avoid any internet pssing matches, but this is bull.
I have personally caused fatal injury to alot more than my share of pheasants. different shot sizes, different shotguns/chokes, and different ranges. I can say without hesitation that I can kill a wild rooster at 40 yards with #7 shot. I've done it and I've done the post-mortems.
I have killed larger animals (up to 100 pounds) with #6 highbrass 12g. Granted, not optimal, but still effective.
Don't believe me? Try it yourself and report back to us.
 
7 1/2 bird shot @ 5 yds is just like nailing someone with 00buck. The patern does not expand much,and the problem of overpenitration and secondary targets is reduced, not eliminated. This is what I use in my house.
 
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No, it's not. 7 1/2 penetrate an inch or two and OO buck penetrates to the vital organs. Stop repeating it just because that's what daddy told you, (as I used to do also). Last word from me. I mean it this time.... no really, I promise. :)
 
If you MUST use birdshot, use a 3 inch #2 lead... the kind of stuff that's hard to find and used to be made for goose or turkey.
 
Kingcreek,

Its not BS, notice how it is a picture. I personally directed the hunter that shot the pheasant to this thread to see if he has any input on it as well. Also, notice the bird is dead..... so the #7 shot did kill it. I'm not debating you can't kill a large animal / human with birdshot.... I'm debating its not optimal at all when your life is on the line.
 
I see the pic and ONE hole. What happened to the other 1oz+ of shot in that charge?
Bet it ain't all laying in the feathers. Bounced off maybe? Was one little ol #7 going faster than all his companions?
No, only one penetrated because only one hit the target!

and another thing, that nifty graph in #26 shows 27cm vs 32cm of penetration. To simple non-metric me, that's like 10.5" vs 12" eh?

Geez, I gotta remember to stay out of these threads.
 
Bayonet. I think a 6 inch blade to the chest, with the promise of some of the real stuff to follow if I continue, would stop most.
 
This is a subject I've gone back and forth with in my own mind in the three years since I purchased my first "tactical" shotgun. I have a Winchester 1300 Defender 12-ga. pump, pistol-gripped. I currently keep it loaded with 00 Federal Power Shok, as I have every confidence that any relatively direct hit above the waist to a BG in my home will terminate the threat. My greatest fear is an indirect hit. I live in a modest, older community where dwellings were all constructed on smaller parcels, and are relatively close to each other. The thought of an overpenetration incident in the middle of the night that might injure or kill one of my neighbors is worrisome, to say the least. For now, I have rehearsed defensive line-of-sight scenarios that don't include windows or single-wall backstops. Unfortunately, a home invasion does not occur in a "perfect world", especially at 3 A.M. when you're still half asleep. :uhoh: Oh, well. I've trained with the 1300, and I am confident in my abilities shooting it. I guess I'll have to take confidence in that fact, should I ever face the "unthinkable".
 
7.5 penetrates an couple of inches and 4 buck penetrates 6-9 (depending on who you believe and how you test it). Some say 4 buck doesn't penetrate enough and recommend 1 Buck at least. I feel safe with 6-9 inches of penetration as that should reach the vital organs on anyone. Not sure why so many people use either 12 or 18 inches as the minimum. Perhaps the people are much larger in their neck of the woods.
Click to expand...
The reason people say 12 is that it is 12 inches of ballistic gelatin of uniform density. Human skin can be equal to 2 inches itself. Organs can also be quite dense, and muscle even more so, with bone topping them both. So 12 inches of balistic gelatin would likely be more like 6-8 inches on a torso. Meaning yes 6 inches is probably plenty, but not 6 inches of gelatin. Add in clothing, possibly heavy clothing like hardened leather, and that could add another ~3 inches balistic gel. So 12 inches is minimum, and #1 buck meets that minimum. 0 00 and 00 exceed that minimum. #4 is also commonly used and may or may not be effective depending on situations, but with that many pellets it is very likely many will slip between the ribs as well as encounter them, so some will still be effective. However cutting penetration that close may leave you in serious lack of stopping power if any cover is involved including heavy clothing, padding, leather, or items in pockets of worn clothing.
 
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Distance is also an issue ignored by many. Same load that will cut a 2x4 in half at ten feet could be useless at 75 feet. Ya gotta look at your situation - threat, terrain and misson dictate. I'm willing to bet my life on a load of #2s as I'm totally UNWILLING to risk my neighbor's lives by using slugs or buckshot.

FWIW, we've gone way offbase from the original poster's question.
 
I guess I'm from a different world than the rest of you folks, but I don't have any 75 foot shots inside my home.

The reason people say 12 is that it is 12 inches of ballistic gelatin of uniform density. Human skin can be equal to 2 inches itself. Organs can also be quite dense, and muscle even more so, with bone topping them both. So 12 inches of balistic gelatin would likely be more like 6-8 inches on a torso.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but lungs have almost no density and shot to the abdomen that misses the femoral or spine/aorta/vena cava is simply a gutshot. Others might lead to eventual death, say the liver or some of the major mesenteric vessels, but wouldn't by themselves stop someone in short order.
 
Wesson, yep I'm refering to loads other than buckshot. A load of 9's at very close range will take out a 2x4, but I've had'em bounce off a hat at 75 feet.

Our prison guards here use #5s for shooting indoors.

Nemo, remember the bit about terrain? In my humble little house, I have two 15 yard shots, neither of which is worth planning for as they involve contortions on my part. :D My max realistic range is about 7 yards. At seven yards, I get 4 inch patterns. Also - if I miss, my neighbor's bedroom is directly in line with the engagement zone. Overpenetration is a big concern for me.
 
Yeah, I used to be able to punch through a 2x4 at close range. Not sure if I still can. I'm softer than I used to be.

What's that have to do with penetrating deep enough to stop a dangerous attacker?
 
If a bad guy is wearing a bikers leather, hoodie, flannel and thermal undie shirt, that's four layers of sturdy material for the light birdshot to penetrate before touching skin.
I'd like to conduct a chronograph test to see how much velocity is lost after passing through heavy clothing. I'd like to test slugs, buckshot and birdshot. It's my guess due to the extremely poor sectional density of birdshot that it wouldn't have enough energy to inflict much damage, let alone incapacitate an attacker after passing through this heavy material.

If you're using birdshot for HD, just don't insist that i make the same mistake.
The minimum size shot i'd consider using would be #4 buck or possibly that Coyote Hevi-shot loading using .20 pellets mentioned by a couple other posters.

I'm currently in a condo-apartment dwelling (albeit with concrete walls) and use Winchester low recoil 00 buck and Remington low recoil slugs.

I wanna get some Hevi-shot buckshot and slugs
 
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