Record energy with Purest BlackPowder

[darkerx]

Hi,

I'm a noob in BP... discovered it a few months ago, but love it

Then I wanted to know how it felt to load one as if I was 150 years ago... which means: to defend my life, make the more damages with only BlackPowder and lead (remain "authentic")... as I suppose I would if I was living 150 years ago...

I bought: a brass-frame 8" 1858 rem/pietta (<=noob choice), a 9" Walker (Uberti), and a rare 18" 1858 CARBINE rem/Uberti, .457 143gr lead balls... + a Chrony, and 2pounds (100$) of SWISS ONE/FFFFG (<=I suppose the best Black Powder of the world, made with the same tools since 1848...).

I maxed the loads (only max VOLUME of powder+ball in chambers, crushed with loading levers (balls almost touch the barrel...)...

The results are incredible (for me(<=noob)):

-Rem 1858: 360.6 m/s, 601 Joules!! (1182 ft/s, 443 ft/lbs)
-Walker: 436.1 m/s, 880 Joules!!! (1430 ft/s, 649 ft/lbs)
-Rem 1858 Carbine: 453.9 m/s, 954 Joules!!!! (1488 ft/s, 703.6 ft/lbs)

With only pure old good BLACK POWDER... it was quite some serious weapons 150 years ago...

I thought posting the results obtained with this Black Powder would be of interest, as I never have seen such high numbers with anything else (substitutes...).

Any comments?

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Why did you choose 4FG powder? Most would shoot those calibers with 3FG. 4FG powder is generally only used for the priming pans of flintlocks.

--- Just Curious ---

Although the Swiss Powder has a fine reputation, and apparantly is a very fine powder, mine is better. My Black Powder has a couple of "secret" ingrediants in it that increases it's power and effectivity. (Don't ask, they are SECRET !!!)

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[mykeal]

First, FFFFG granulation is too fine for revolvers. While it's safe to use you will get inconsistent results; the pressure spike is faster and shorter. Use FFFG in revolvers and you'll have much more reliable results.

Second, full chamber loads in a brass frame revolver are abusive. The frame will collect damage and quickly affect timing and lockup. You should use no more than about 25 grains by volume of FFFG in a brass frame revolver. (A bit of clarification here - by 'brass frame' I'm assuming you mean the part of the gun that houses the internal parts and encloses the cylinder is made of brass. People often mistakenly refer to the part that encloses the grip or the trigger as the frame; guns with brass grip frames or trigger guards are not considered to be brass framed guns.)

 

[junkman_01]

EW wrote....

Although the Swiss Powder has a fine reputation, and apparently is a very fine powder, mine is better. My Black Powder has a couple of "secret" ingredients in it that increases it's power and effectively. (Don't ask, they are SECRET !!!)

Without documentation, this is just one of your MYTHS!

 

[Voodoochile]

If EW's powder has a few extra ingredients in it, then technically it's not real Black Powder & possibly dangerous for normal use, even the Swiss brand powder uses the same ingredients that has been the general norm for hundreds of years "Charcoal, sulfer, Salt Peter" it's just the ratio of the ingredients & processing that makes Swiss a little more potent.

I also agree 100% with mykeal on the brass framed firearms.

 

[darkerx]

I agree with most of your comments....

My point was: If I was 150 years ago, looking for a deadly load, I would use the srongest power available (Black at this time, then only black in my tests...).

Then, I'm surprised by the results... it's much more than what I have found on the net...

 

[mykeal]

Your results are not surprising; they're skewed high because of the granulation. FFFFG is not for use in revolvers.

And here's a caution: comparing your chronograph results with others from the internet is not scientific. There's no standard for calibration of chronographs. Your unit, or the units others used, may be reporting inaccurate numbers. The only way you can compare your numbers with other published numbers is if both chronographs have been 'calibrated' to the same standard, or used to measure the same projectile traveling at a known velocity. A chronograph is an excellent tool for comparing one load with another as long as the same machine is used each time, but comparing one unit's results against another's without a reference standard is iffy at best.

 

[darkerx]

All my weapons are BP certified (tested by official services), and swiss 1 is a BP (made for PISTOLS: www.blackpowder.ch). I would not try those test with weapons not displaying the test marks.

Concerning the use of Chrony: they have been (like any other measuring device) calibrated, then EVERY CHRONY WILL DISPLAY THE SAME VALUE FOR THE SAME SPEED (it's even written on the box...).

 

[junkman_01]

Electronic chronographs are easily tricked by black powder smoke and flame unless placed pretty far from the muzzle. How far were your screens?

 

[[email protected]]

He is right that Swiss No 1, which is our 4F is a pistol powder. I have known
that for some time now. When I was at Friendship last month at the shoot,
several of the pistol shooters were using it. Can't tell you the loads, secret.

 

[darkerx]

I was at about 10 feets. There is only powder and ball in those loads, then almost no particles (only smoke... but smoke doesn't travel far or fast).

There was NO particles on the Chrony afterwards.

 

[darkerx]

hum... I was wondering: are each and every frame, barrel, and cylinder being tested by officials services (different from the manufacturer) before being sold in the US?

(Sorry for the above question. I made a search on this forum and "rcmodel" made a complete and detailled answer: there is no proof-house in the US... I would not try my tests with un-proof-marked guns...)

 

[Mike OTDP]

I've used Swiss #1 myself in the smaller bore single-shot pistols. Target loads, of course - 12 grains in a .36 caliber pistol. Not sure I care to try it in anything over .40 caliber, and certainly not in anything much more than 15 grains. The British shooters have been using it with good results - but you have to be very careful not to overload.

 

[Jim Watson]

In no particular order...

There is no government proof house in the USA. Manufacturers do their own testing to avoid lawsuits by the hungry court system here. I wouldn't worry about it.

I know of no current US made percussion revolver. The Ruger Old Army is stronger than any government proofed import but is out of production and selling at ever higher prices.

Guns are stronger now. You can get away with 4F in a modern gun; even the cheap ones are made of better material than was available to Colt in the 1850s, advertisements of "Silver Steel" notwithstanding.

Old cartridges pulled down are normally found with coarser powder than we now consider standard for the caliber.

The Confederacy had a lot of trouble with guns made of iron marginal even for the day failing proof. Ref. "twisted iron" cylinders. You would not want to load one of them up with priming powder to get a little bit more velocity shooting at a Yankee.

 

[darkerx]

Interesting point of view... I think, in the old days, I would have had to make the proofing myself, I guess (prior to using full loads... ).

By the way, swiss people don't use Swiss 1 for priming... they have an other powder for this purpose.

By the way (bis), I have been told this was a picture of an ROA... I think there may be "lemons" in every kind of products...

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Junkman,

A proprietary secret is just that, asking me for proof of my formula is like asking Coca-Cola to reveal their recipe. Some things in life just have to be accepted on faith.

Voodoo,

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Black Powder formulas formulated over the centuries for specific purposes. Black Powders used for blasting are not the same formula's as those used for gunnery. Black powders used as rocket propellants, either for pyrotechnical display rockets, or for military rockets, also have significant alterations in the formulas and preparations. Black powder makers, have, for centuries, added in trace elements into their various powders, to slightly modify the formulas and specific performance characteristics of the Black Powders produced. For example, many midevil oriental and european powder manufacturers added in a small amount of aged human urine while wet mixing the powders. Urine, when it breaks down, will produce small amounts of phosphorous, and in prior times, the use of human and animal urine was widespread in many industries, such as Black Powder Manufacturing, match manufacturing, and leather tanning.

So, slight variations of the basic Black Powder formulas, are allowed, indeed, even encouraged in the industry.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[Busyhands94]

well i gave ElvinWarrior my formula, and i can tell you all that the secret ingredient would have been around in the Civil War.

 

[darkerx]

Nice indeed to do his own powder... congrats.

What kind of results does it give? (when using it)

 

[junkman_01]

EW,

I wouldn't except anything on faith even if we were face to face, no less on the internet. I want facts, not myths!

 

[4v50 Gary]

If you're old enough to remember the old Coors Beer advertisement, it's the water. Closed.